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General Chat Thread, Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down? in General; Okay, I'm done now. Bottom line is that as @ GREED points out, the larger the vehicle the less control ...
  1. #106

    AMLightfoot's Avatar
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    Okay, I'm done now. Bottom line is that as @GREED points out, the larger the vehicle the less control you have over your own fate. As a car driver, I can't control the stupidity of others but I CAN learn how to react to it and how to control my vehicle in extremis, as a plane passenger, if a bunch of terrorists 20 miles below me decide to launch a missile at the plane I'm . I hate travelling by Taxi because I often find a Taxi drivers driving to be worrisome. Ditto buses and coaches. I'm better with trains because while accidents can happen, the train travels on rails which to me is 'safer' than roads (yes, I realise this is probably fallacy but how I FEEL about something doesn't necessarily bear any resemblance to FACT). I get terribly travel sick on boats or ships so I don't travel on them if I can help it, but as a strong swimmer I am less concerned than I would be if I couldn't swim at all. So often how 'safe' a mode of transport is owes more to personal perception than to established statistical fact and the perception for me is that travelling by car when I am driving is 'safer' than getting on a bus (unpredictable fellow passengers, no seat belts, dodgy drivers etc) and definitely safer than getting into a big aluminium Pringles can and being launched into the sky above countries I'd never dare visit.

  2. #107

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    Those stats on survival are pretty accurate, as pointed out earlier a lot of aircraft "disasters" don't end up with you heading towards the ground at mach 3.

    Look at the BA crash in 2008 at Heathrow, the pilot just managed to get the plane over the perimeter fence before hitting the ground shearing the landing gear off and sliding to a halt. 100% survival rate.

    Try watching air crash investigation it's on one of the documentary channels. Really fascinating stuff, how they figure it all out.

    Even some of the big crashes you find 1 or 2 survivors sometimes.

  3. #108
    Galway's Avatar
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    The Ukrainians have 'lost' at least 45% of their army, they don't know where they are. They are currently defending their 'homeland' in the east, as are many civilians. Even though it has not been announced, the country is gripped in a civil war.

    The Ukraine government is in shambles, the president has quit and there will be new elections that will hopefully mean everyone can get around the table and resolve things with dialogue. The main problem Ukraine has is Kiev and the western side want closer ties with the EU, the eastern side don't.

    I personally think the country will split.
    Last edited by Galway; 25th July 2014 at 11:14 AM.

  4. #109
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    I think a split will be for the best, Russia gets it's buffer zone and Kiev gets peace. It won't be in Kiev's interests though without some form of recompense for all the industries and resources in the East.

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    I think the question really is do the majority of people in the East want more ties with Russia?

    I don't believe they do, they boycotted the last elections.

    You could then end up with "unionists" fighting to reunite Ukraine.

    Potentially this has the makings of the east/West Germany split and that didn't go so well

  6. #111
    foofighterjim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bananas View Post
    Potentially this has the makings of the east/West Germany split and that didn't go so well
    The difference is that the Germany split was enforced after WW2, it was never "voted" for by the public.

  7. #112

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    The Ukrainians have 'lost' at least 45% of their army, they don't know where they are. They are currently defending their 'homeland' in the east, as are many civilians. Even though it has not been announced, the country is gripped in a civil war.

    The Ukraine government is in shambles, the president has quit and there will be new elections that will hopefully mean everyone can get around the table and resolve things with dialogue. The main problem Ukraine has is Kiev and the western side want closer ties with the EU, the eastern side don't.

    I personally think the country will split.
    *sigh* Its like you get information from somewhere the rest of us can't access. As far as I'm aware, the President of Ukraine has not quit. His government has resigned as they feel they have failed the country. The Prime Minister has resigned with them.

    I don't know if they will split. The thing that has been pretty evident from all sides is that while the separatists have been somewhat effective up until now, when the Ukrainian army focuses itself, it quickly overwhelms the separatists, recapturing some of the deep strongholds in the east pretty quickly. The push back appears to happen most when the separatists get their hands on heavy weaponry and training. My thought is that there simply isn't enough time for the separatists to become strong enough to force such a split - unless Russia actually steps in.

    I do think the outcome for the EU will be relatively considerable. I believe the crisis, along with the downed flight, will be used as evidence for the strengthening of EUFOR/Eurocorps/EUMS/EGF - and basically the creation of a more general EU military force.
    Last edited by localzuk; 25th July 2014 at 11:40 AM.

  8. Thanks to localzuk from:

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  9. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by foofighterjim View Post
    The difference is that the Germany split was enforced after WW2, it was never "voted" for by the public.
    So you think it'll be a fair vote then do you?

    That's a touch naive to be honest. The previous vote was universally condemned.

    Let's face it putin is the king of vote rigging (imho)

    Would you go to vote against Russia (effectively) knowing there would be a militia outside to intimidate.

    There is absolutely no way they would have a free & fair vote, not going to happen. In fact if there is one I'll bet they refuse to allow international observers in to monitor the vote.

    If it happens make no mistake it's enforced one way or the other, either by annexation (ie Crimea) or by vote rigging.

    The moment the leave the Ukraine vote is announced 20, 000 Russian troops will cross the border to "secure" the area.

  10. #114
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    Did I say it was fair?

    Did the Germans get to vote about their country being divided up?

    What I am saying is that is so different from what happened with Germany (particularly Berlin) that you can't draw a comparison.

  11. #115
    Galway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    *sigh* Its like you get information from somewhere the rest of us can't access. As far as I'm aware, the President of Ukraine has not quit. His government has resigned as they feel they have failed the country. The Prime Minister has resigned with them.

    I don't know if they will split. The thing that has been pretty evident from all sides is that while the separatists have been somewhat effective up until now, when the Ukrainian army focuses itself, it quickly overwhelms the separatists, recapturing some of the deep strongholds in the east pretty quickly. The push back appears to happen most when the separatists get their hands on heavy weaponry and training. My thought is that there simply isn't enough time for the separatists to become strong enough to force such a split - unless Russia actually steps in.

    I do think the outcome for the EU will be relatively considerable. I believe the crisis, along with the downed flight, will be used as evidence for the strengthening of EUFOR/Eurocorps/EUMS/EGF - and basically the creation of a more general EU military force.
    *sigh* I have russian TV, I have family in Russian and Ukraine. This mean I first hand information, even before 'i know how to use google' zuk. THe news of the Pm will filter down to mere mortals soon, just keep tapping refresh.

    Attachment 25877

    The Ukraine will split, they speak a different first language and have closer ties to Russia and don't want to be just another EU debt.

  12. #116

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    *sigh* I have russian TV, I have family in Russian and Ukraine. This mean I first hand information, even before 'i know how to use google' zuk. THe news of the Pm will filter down to mere mortals soon, just keep tapping refresh.
    You said the PRESIDENT had resigned. Not the Prime Minister. Huge difference. In fact its so different that it might change the course of the entire conflict. For example, an election is likely to end up filling parliament with an even more pro-EU government... Not to mention, it has already been shown multiple times over that many Russian TV stations are propagandising the conflict, with simple lies that can be disproven very quickly. This article by Time gives a good rundown of RT's manipulation of information relating to the plane downing - Malaysia Airlines Ukraine Crash Spotlights Russian TV Propaganda - TIME. If that's not enough, the mentioned StopFake - is pretty darn good also...

    The Ukraine will split, they speak a different first language and have closer ties to Russia and don't want to be just another EU debt.
    We'll see.

  13. #117
    Galway's Avatar
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    "For example, an election is likely to end up filling parliament with an even more pro-EU government... "
    For example, an election is likely to end up filling parliament with an even more pro-Putin government... Your point ?

    "Not to mention, it has already been shown multiple times over that THE MEDIA are propagandising the conflict, with simple lies that can be disproven very quickly."
    Fixed it, wouldn't want to be biased.

    "This article by Time gives a good rundown of RT's manipulation of information relating to the plane downing - Malaysia Airlines Ukraine Crash Spotlights Russian TV Propaganda - TIME. If that's not enough, the mentioned StopFake - is pretty darn good also..."
    Or there is the british press, they have been really informative front page propaganda pushing all different favours of excrement. Lets not ignore them keeping us informed of the 'truth', they have shown the world how 'informed' we are LOL. Lets slag off some media site in xyz and totally ignore our own, job well done.

  14. #118

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    "For example, an election is likely to end up filling parliament with an even more pro-EU government... "
    For example, an election is likely to end up filling parliament with an even more pro-Putin government... Your point ?
    It isn't a "just say the opposite" match you know. I'm going by what analysts are saying about the likely outcome of an election in Ukraine, if it were to occur now. The issue is that such an election would harden the East vs West thinking, and prolong the current crisis. Many are saying that the entire country needs to be taking part in the election, but its unlikely to happen, as those separatist strongholds wouldn't allow polling stations to be set up and run in their areas.

    You also didn't bother to actual pick up on the difference between the President and Prime Minister resigning.

    "Not to mention, it has already been shown multiple times over that THE MEDIA are propagandising the conflict, with simple lies that can be disproven very quickly."
    Fixed it, wouldn't want to be biased.
    Oh, of course the west is propagandising. You do appear to be very pro-Russian media though, regularly spouting what is essentially the Russian line on the crisis.

    "This article by Time gives a good rundown of RT's manipulation of information relating to the plane downing - Malaysia Airlines Ukraine Crash Spotlights Russian TV Propaganda - TIME. If that's not enough, the mentioned StopFake - is pretty darn good also..."
    Or there is the british press, they have been really informative front page propaganda pushing all different favours of excrement. Lets not ignore them keeping us informed of the 'truth', they have shown the world how 'informed' we are LOL. Lets slag off some media site in xyz and totally ignore our own, job well done.
    Sorry, what? You stated "I have russian TV" as if to say this was a good reason to take what you're saying as truthful. You can't even be bothered to present the right information when called on your errors (president/prime minister), or when pointing out that "Russian TV" is biased. Were we talking about our media? No. YOU brought up "russian TV".

  15. #119
    Galway's Avatar
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    I pointed out the russian TV to answer your point about how I can claim to know about things you can copy and paste from google. I also pointed out our press, our fine purveyors of news and information to the populous as our national side to the situation to compare to your contribution to the propaganda. Of course, anyone can pop a video on youtube and make claims, these have to be taken with a pinch of salt unless it can be by a verified source. Not anyone can setup a mulimillion newspapper empire and yet the information presented to the populous is not fit to wrap up chips with.

    There are alot of claims being made, alot of lies being told, there we both agree. Where I differ with you is your stance is how Russia is to blame in this issue, and the whole stance the UK and america is taking in accusing Putin of such atrocities, I really don't believe it and actually know there is a different story to be told if you hear what the eastern Ukrainans are going through. This is not just about Ukraine, this is also the genocide going on in Syria, Iraq, Israel and Palestine and that useless twit Hague has done in 'serving' the UK interest.

    As to being 'not bothered' to present the right information, I disagree with you. You have been quick to discredit anything I have posted without addressing any of, all you have done is spout some other random nonsence and say what I have said is nto correct, its clear to me your opinion cannot be swayed unless its spoken from Obama or Some EU/Nato committee has rubber stamped it.

    "Sorry, what? You stated "I have russian TV" as if to say this was a good reason to take what you're saying as truthful. You can't even be bothered to present the right information when called on your errors (president/prime minister), or when pointing out that "Russian TV" is biased. Were we talking about our media? No. YOU brought up "russian TV"."

    Huh? I have access to russian TV, this was made in defense of your post asking how I can know things before you can google them, Am I not allowed to do this? DO i need to spell it out or video tape it and offer it in a internet forum discussion to get it validated before I can use its influence to show the other side of a coin? Can I not draw a comparison to OUR media in your BIAS towards theirs?.

    Lastly is boils down to president/Primeminister, Well, its conclusive then ! Clearly we can discount everything.

    And people wonder why its pointless discussing things with people who clearly dont get out much stuck on a rock with the social skills of google bot.

  16. #120

    localzuk's Avatar
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    You seem to be missing the point I'm making a bit. You're stating things, quite clearly as if they are fact. When called on the validity of those things (the president resigning, as an example) you state that you know because you have Russian TV and relatives in the area. I show to you that "Russian TV" is biased and that you were factually wrong (the president has not resigned) and now you try to distract with claims of my agreeing with everything the EU/Nato/Obama(??) says, still ignoring the initial problem - that you stated that the President had resigned!

    This has nothing to do with google skills or social skills or whatever, it has to do with you making claims that are demonstrably false whilst using known propaganda peddlers and anecdotes as evidence to try and back you up.

    Why you bring up the Middle East issue, I have no idea...
    Last edited by localzuk; 25th July 2014 at 08:24 PM.



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