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General Chat Thread, Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down? in General; Originally Posted by localzuk How is it the Ukraine government's fault that the bodies aren't being moved? The Ukraine government ...
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    Galway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    How is it the Ukraine government's fault that the bodies aren't being moved? The Ukraine government are effectively at war with an effective fighting force in that area. What could they do? Go in guns blazing? That'd help with the forensic investigation wouldn't it? You're underestimating how complex a situation it is.
    They were at the scene the same day. I think you assume its crawling with Russian special forces?
    The Ukrainians from Kiev dont want to be there because the people who live there dislike them with a passion. They want to be free from the west.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    They were at the scene the same day. I think you assume its crawling with Russian special forces?
    The Ukrainians from Kiev dont want to be there because the people who live there dislike them with a passion. They want to be free from the west.
    Evidence of this? Every report I've seen, including those from the Russian side news sites, indicate that the people in control are the separatists. I've not actually seen any evidence that Ukrainian government personnel were there in fact. I've seen evidence that the OSCE have tried to get on to the site and have been turned away though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Evidence of this? Every report I've seen, including those from the Russian side news sites, indicate that the people in control are the separatists. I've not actually seen any evidence that Ukrainian government personnel were there in fact. I've seen evidence that the OSCE have tried to get on to the site and have been turned away though.
    My evidence, here as posted before. Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4 You obviously haven't watched it so why are you arguing the case if you don't know what it does actually show?

    There where militant soldiers all over the place including an international forensic scientist to investigate, the scientist was worried about speaking up to channel 4 around the soldiers as they where being threatened with guns, when he tried to go over to the bodes the soldiers told him to stop and MOVE! So to me that shows that the Government is trying to actively hide things, there was also a clip of a solider removing the Black Box, which was then rumoured to be taken to another part of the country under Putins control of which he still hasn't released the data.

    Putin is poo'ing himself quite literally because Russia and his reputation internationally will be stamped on if and when we find out it was the Russian Military that shot the plane down.

    Edit: Think logically for a moment it's been a week since this all happened and we still don't have anymore answers, the only way we knew it was shot down where due to America's surveillance technology that could prove a missile had been fired. If Russia was open and weren't trying to hide something we'd have the information from the blackbox we'd have the bodies back in the UK for the grieving parents and loved one's to bury and there wouldn't be an issue, no matter what you say it's disgusting that the Russian government has left the bodies just lying there!
    Last edited by abillybob; 24th July 2014 at 02:13 PM.

  4. #94

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    My evidence, here as posted before. Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4 You obviously haven't watched it so why are you arguing the case if you don't know what it does actually show?

    There where militant soldiers all over the place including an international forensic scientist to investigate, the scientist was worried about speaking up to channel 4 around the soldiers as they where being threatened with guns, when he tried to go over to the bodes the soldiers told him to stop and MOVE! So to me that shows that the Government is trying to actively hide things, there was also a clip of a solider removing the Black Box, which was then rumoured to be taken to another part of the country under Putins control of which he still hasn't released the data.

    Putin is poo'ing himself quite literally because Russia and his reputation internationally will be stamped on if and when we find out it was the Russian Military that shot the plane down.

    Edit: Think logically for a moment it's been a week since this all happened and we still don't have anymore answers, the only way we knew it was shot down where due to America's surveillance technology that could prove a missile had been fired. If Russia was open and weren't trying to hide something we'd have the information from the blackbox we'd have the bodies back in the UK for the grieving parents and loved one's to bury and there wouldn't be an issue, no matter what you say it's disgusting that the Russian government has left the bodies just lying there!
    What are you talking about? OK, at this moment in time I don't have time to watch that particular show, yes, but you seem to be mixing up Ukrainian government with separatists militias. The men with guns, as the OSCE has pointed out many times, are militia, not government.

    The black boxes were collected by the separatists - proven by the simple fact that it was the separatists who arranged with the Malaysian government to hand them over to them. The Malaysian govenment then gave them to the UK, who have confirmed they have not been tampered with and are legitimate. The first amount of bodies are now in the Netherlands, being identified and autopsied, before they will be returned to their countries of origin and their families.

    So, again, the Ukrainian military are NOT at the crash site. The rebels/separatists/terrorists/whatever term you want to use for them are.
    Last edited by localzuk; 24th July 2014 at 02:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    There where militant soldiers
    Militant - I bet they were!

    Perhaps you mean "militia" - which is the term being used for the Separatists who are in control of the area where the plane came down and who are fighting the Ukrainian regular forces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    What are you talking about? OK, at this moment in time I don't have time to watch that particular show, yes, but you seem to be mixing up Ukrainian government with separatists militias. The men with guns, as the OSCE has pointed out many times, are militia, not government.

    The black boxes were collected by the separatists - proven by the simple fact that it was the separatists who arranged with the Malaysian government to hand them over to them. The Malaysian govenment then gave them to the UK, who have confirmed they have not been tampered with and are legitimate. The first amount of bodies are now in the Netherlands, being identified and autopsied, before they will be returned to their countries of origin and their families.

    So, again, the Ukrainian military are NOT at the crash site. The rebels/separatists/terrorists/whatever term you want to use for them are.
    Ah there you have it sorry got confused

    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Militant - I bet they were!

    Perhaps you mean "militia" - which is the term being used for the Separatists who are in control of the area where the plane came down and who are fighting the Ukrainian regular forces.
    This ^^ Haha!

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    I know this has little to do with this but another Airliner has gone missing this time over Africa.

    BBC News - Algeria airliner missing on Sahara route from Burkina Faso

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey-gear View Post
    I know this has little to do with this but another Airliner has gone missing this time over Africa.

    BBC News - Algeria airliner missing on Sahara route from Burkina Faso
    Sounds like a good time to take a ferry instead with the current trend of planes not making it.

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    Ugh I'm flying in 4 days and already scared of flying these things don't help

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Sounds like a good time to take a ferry instead with the current trend of planes not making it.
    Like the ferry went down around South Korea?

    I think walking sounds a much safer option all round!

    Or swimming

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    Ugh I'm flying in 4 days and already scared of flying these things don't help
    You seriously shouldn't worry about it.

    Odds for dying:

    Plane crash - 11 million to 1
    Shark attack - 3.7 million to 1
    Car crash - 5000 to 1

    Chance of surviving a plane crash - 95.7%

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You seriously shouldn't worry about it.

    Odds for dying:

    Plane crash - 11 million to 1
    Shark attack - 3.7 million to 1
    Car crash - 5000 to 1

    Chance of surviving a plane crash - 95.7%
    Agree with the odd on items 1 2 and 3.

    But then.. WHAT! where did that stay come from? I will assume a plane crash in this case, as is usually the case, is where a crash is anything from hitting a bird while stationary on the runway to full blown nose dive... how many survive what generally is the big fall out of the sky and fireball type plane crash?

    Also, the bigger the vehicle the less control over your own fate you have ;-)

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GREED View Post
    Agree with the odd on items 1 2 and 3.

    But then.. WHAT! where did that stay come from? I will assume a plane crash in this case, as is usually the case, is where a crash is anything from hitting a bird while stationary on the runway to full blown nose dive... how many survive what generally is the big fall out of the sky and fireball type plane crash?

    Also, the bigger the vehicle the less control over your own fate you have ;-)
    Here you go - Big Question: What are the odds of surviving a plane crash? : Discovery Channel

    Basically, most "crashes" aren't planes falling from the sky. They're planes having super hard landings and the plane sliding along the runway, or ditching in a river, or landing on abandoned runways with a race meeting on etc...
    Last edited by localzuk; 24th July 2014 at 03:13 PM.

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    Fair enough. Thanks for the link.
    Be interesting to know the stats for the planes out of the sky crashes given now three (4 including today) high profile crashes in as many months... not to be morbid or anything

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    There were around 1000 extra deaths on the road in the US in the period after 9/11 as more people shunned flying and chose the riskier option of driving.

    How We Calculate Risk: Fear of Flying After 9/11 Led to Increase in Auto Deaths |

    Once you've made it to the airport, the riskiest part of the journey is over.
    Last edited by jinnantonnixx; 24th July 2014 at 03:58 PM.



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