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General Chat Thread, Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down? in General; Originally Posted by seawolf .....The fact is that governments make all kinds of decisions like that which are perhaps morally ...
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    Galway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    .....The fact is that governments make all kinds of decisions like that which are perhaps morally questionable, but done for political or economic reasons in order to prevent wars and keep the status quo, etc.. It's happened many times in the past.
    Prevent wars ? *ahem* WMD anyone

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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    It would only be speculation if I had no knowledge of these sort of things. But, I do.
    It is speculation because you do not have the actual facts, what has actually happened on the ground. You are making a lot of assumptions - such as your one missile fired. Being knowledgeable about systems doesn't turn your speculation into fact.
    Yes, it is possible, but the war has only been going on since the spring and the SAM systems have only entered the arena recently, which makes it less likely. A more plausible answer might be that there are ex-Russian military soldiers fighting for the separatists or covert Russian soldiers fighting for them. Many countries have done this in the past, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.
    Again, speculation. If there are Russian units in play in the theatre, US intelligence must be failing miserably not to be able to claim to have any evidence (comms traffic, satellite images, ground radar tracks of traffic crossing the border etc) . Perhaps they are too busy watching the facebook pages of their own citizens these days but I doubt it.
    Or, because they are going to allow Russia to save face as long as the Russian government hangs the separatists out to dry. The fact is that governments make all kinds of decisions like that which are perhaps morally questionable, but done for political or economic reasons in order to prevent wars and keep the status quo, etc.. It's happened many times in the past.
    More speculation. There is no evidence that the Russians are about to abandon the separatists. It is the US is backing down while EU members are bickering about each others financial interests. Putin already has Crimea in his pocket with little effective response from the west and he seems to be coming out of this with the EU and USA looking completely ineffective.

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    LOL. Well, I'm going to speculate about beer now. Much more entertaining.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    LOL. Well, I'm going to speculate about beer now.
    But will anyone be able to tell the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    But will anyone be able to tell the difference.
    Why of course not, I'm an Aussie after all. Right? A real fair dinkum bloke you are there mate. Good on ya.

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    Link: Tracking Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 - WSJ.com

    Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was flying at 33,000 feet in airspace that Ukrainian air-traffic control said was safe. After the plane was shot down, the airline and other carriers diverted traffic away from the area.

    Explore the routes Flight 17 followed in the months leading up to the crash, on the day of the crash and in the days after. You can also see the paths of other flights in the immediate vicinity at the same time of the crash.

    Note: Part of the flight tracks were not covered by Flightradar24, including areas of Iran, Turkmenistan, and the Indian Ocean.

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    This story is terrifying. My Parents and my Sister and her husband are due to Fly into Kuala Lumpur (On separate occasions) via MA and my Sisters mother in law has demanded that they change carriers - she's even said she'll pay for it. The sad thing is that it could easily have been a Virgin Airways flight. It's so unnecessary. The whole thing just makes me scared and mad. Scared because as passengers you have no control over the flightpath of the plane (not that there was any reason to believe commercial airliners would be at risk) and that sort of vulnerability terrifies me, and mad because WHY?

    When this story first broke I said to LeBoyfriend that I would not be surprised if it was a contributory factor in WW3. We have conflict and unrest in the Middle east, North Korea is simmering, the Israel/Palestine conflict has surged again, the problems with Russia and the Ukraine seem only to be getting worse and I can't see the US letting Russia get away with the MH17 atrocity for much longer, missiles are landing near Turkish airports which is probably going to provoke the Turkish authorities into action. There is still ongoing instability in Iraq and Afghanistan which is drawing Pakistan into the fray by association. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't just slide quietly into another World War...

    I certainly hope the families of the MH17 victims get some answers and some justice for what happened.

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    There was a major plane crash in Taiwan. Now Algeria are reporting a plane has gone missing en route from Burkina Faso. Really not a good time to fly!
    BBC News - Algeria 'loses contact with plane'

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMLightfoot View Post
    This story is terrifying. My Parents and my Sister and her husband are due to Fly into Kuala Lumpur (On separate occasions) via MA and my Sisters mother in law has demanded that they change carriers - she's even said she'll pay for it. The sad thing is that it could easily have been a Virgin Airways flight. It's so unnecessary. The whole thing just makes me scared and mad. Scared because as passengers you have no control over the flightpath of the plane (not that there was any reason to believe commercial airliners would be at risk) and that sort of vulnerability terrifies me, and mad because WHY?

    When this story first broke I said to LeBoyfriend that I would not be surprised if it was a contributory factor in WW3. We have conflict and unrest in the Middle east, North Korea is simmering, the Israel/Palestine conflict has surged again, the problems with Russia and the Ukraine seem only to be getting worse and I can't see the US letting Russia get away with the MH17 atrocity for much longer, missiles are landing near Turkish airports which is probably going to provoke the Turkish authorities into action. There is still ongoing instability in Iraq and Afghanistan which is drawing Pakistan into the fray by association. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we don't just slide quietly into another World War...

    I certainly hope the families of the MH17 victims get some answers and some justice for what happened.
    Not really sure how changing airlines would help. Both crashes were arguably out of MA control.

    Worrying about WW3 seems a little over the top, these areas have been fighting back and forth for decades, I'm more worried about when the oil starts to run dry .
    Last edited by tommej; 24th July 2014 at 10:57 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tommej View Post
    Not really sure how changing airlines would help. Both crashes were arguably be out of MA control.
    Well exactly. I said exactly this but my sisters MIL is very superstitious. Arguably, like American Airlines post 9/11, these high profile tragedies would surely mean that MA would be MORE focussed on ensuring passenger confidence so it is almost MORE safe to fly MA than other airlines because they'll be so focussed on NOT losing passengers (either commercially or literally). MIL is a bit of a worrier and she believes that MA are cursed/jinxed and she wants Sister and BIL to change carriers for her own peace of mind.

    The MH17 tragedy is definitely NOT the fault of MA, and MH370 isn't directly a fault of the airline, but something happened on that flight that may or may not have been within the power of the MA crew to affect. Until they recover the black box (which is looking unlikely at this point) we'll never know for sure.

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    Watched the Dispatches documentary on this which was really interesting link below, it was very interesting although it really puts a face to the people that got killed in the tragic event

    Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4

    I think it's disgusting how the Ukrainian Government are just allowing the bodies to sit in the place they fell, no forensic evidence is yet able to take place as the Russian Militants are stopping anyone from going to the scene, people on the ground of Ukraine where reporting bodies just dropping from the air, they fell into homes and on the land around them. Some bodies have been looted by other people for things like clothes and shoes, give them some dignity for god sake!
    My heart goes out to all of the families and friends that are suffering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    Watched the Dispatches documentary on this which was really interesting link below, it was very interesting although it really puts a face to the people that got killed in the tragic event

    Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4

    I think it's disgusting how the Ukrainian Government are just allowing the bodies to sit in the place they fell, no forensic evidence is yet able to take place as the Russian Militants are stopping anyone from going to the scene, people on the ground of Ukraine where reporting bodies just dropping from the air, they fell into homes and on the land around them. Some bodies have been looted by other people for things like clothes and shoes, give them some dignity for god sake!
    My heart goes out to all of the families and friends that are suffering.
    How is it the Ukraine government's fault that the bodies aren't being moved? The Ukraine government are effectively at war with an effective fighting force in that area. What could they do? Go in guns blazing? That'd help with the forensic investigation wouldn't it? You're underestimating how complex a situation it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    Watched the Dispatches documentary on this which was really interesting link below, it was very interesting although it really puts a face to the people that got killed in the tragic event

    Dispatches - 4oD - Channel 4

    I think it's disgusting how the Ukrainian Government are just allowing the bodies to sit in the place they fell, no forensic evidence is yet able to take place as the Russian Militants are stopping anyone from going to the scene, people on the ground of Ukraine where reporting bodies just dropping from the air, they fell into homes and on the land around them. Some bodies have been looted by other people for things like clothes and shoes, give them some dignity for god sake!
    My heart goes out to all of the families and friends that are suffering.
    The whole thing is appalling and I'm sure there will be stories emerging in the coming weeks of MH17 victims credit cards being used in Eastern Europe which will only add to the distress of the families having to deal with financial fraud at such a terrible time.

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    Another plane missing. Pretty terrifying.

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