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General Chat Thread, Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down? in General; Originally Posted by Galway You have to remember, this is Ukraine Odessa: Western media protect the puppeteers of a massmurder ...
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    truebluesteve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    You have to remember, this is Ukraine Odessa: Western media protect the puppeteers of a massmurder - Englisch | Medien-Klagemauer.TV

    Watch at home, works in IE.
    What a load of unsubstantiated nonsense. Making a video of random clips with no source information does not constitute the truth. Still I liked the expression "football rowdies" - seems almost civilised!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Erm, that's pretty much the same conclusion I came to. Seperatists shot it down due to a screw up.
    Yep, but I don't buy the whole "there were a load of Ukrainian fighters nearby" story. They (the separatists) saw a plane on their radar and shot it down. Trigger happy soldier? Probably.

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    Interesting that the Ukrainian SU-25 is coming into play now and was apparently 'near' the Malaysian 777 when it was shot down. I Don't think for one minute that this aircraft is responsible for bringing down the jetliner. Its a ground attack aircraft and is probably barely capable of getting above 10,000ft with a warload. In fact service ceiling is listed at around 20,000ft clean. It does have a very basic air to air system.

    More likely the SAM operator went for the Su25 and got the 777 instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by truebluesteve View Post
    What a load of unsubstantiated nonsense. Making a video of random clips with no source information does not constitute the truth. Still I liked the expression "football rowdies" - seems almost civilised!
    It all happened after a football match, didnt you know>? https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourc...ssacre&spell=1

    The exit crowd merged with a peaceful protest and ... well, the unsubstantiated nonsense was allowed to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Erm, that's pretty much the same conclusion I came to. Seperatists shot it down due to a screw up.
    Yup. My thoughts too. One analyst the other day said that it was likely that the Buk system wasn't provided with a secondary radar system with IFF decoding, so whoever was operating it had no secondary system to use to confirm what they were shooting at. So, to them, they just saw "big plane at low altitude compared to normal commercial flights" and pressed the button. If that scenario turns out to be true, then the blame does lie pretty much on Russia's shoulders for supply the equipment with inadequate training or supplementary systems for identification of commercial air traffic.

    That said, there doesn't appear to be much impetus for further sanctions against Russia over this, with today seeing quite a drop in rhetoric since yesterday even, with wording being softened in the demands of the West.

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    Which lends credence to the thought that western leaders are too scared, re gas supplies to do anything

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Yup. My thoughts too. One analyst the other day said that it was likely that the Buk system wasn't provided with a secondary radar system with IFF decoding, so whoever was operating it had no secondary system to use to confirm what they were shooting at. So, to them, they just saw "big plane at low altitude compared to normal commercial flights" and pressed the button. If that scenario turns out to be true, then the blame does lie pretty much on Russia's shoulders for supply the equipment with inadequate training or supplementary systems for identification of commercial air traffic.
    33,000 feet is a completely acceptable and standard altitude for commercial aircraft to fly. I've been on many long-haul flights where the altitude was lower due to other flights in the vicinity or adverse weather conditions.

    My recommendation for action by the western world would be for the FAA and European equivalents to ban all airline flights in Russian airspace due to safety concerns until full compliance is provided by Russia in the investigation, and all SAM batteries and Russian military personnel (we know they are there and they know that we know they are there) are withdrawn from Ukraine and the border. This would essentially stop most all commercial traffic including delivery of mail and goods to Russia or out of Russia if they did not comply. No UN sanctions would be required to put this in place, but it would cripple Russia.

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    It is a normal height yes, but not for that flight. As I said, it was on that flight path because it had diverted to avoid a storm. It wasn't "normal" for that plane to be where it was.

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    Flew home from Schipol last night and saw all the flowers people have left there.

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    CAM
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    33,000 feet is a completely acceptable and standard altitude for commercial aircraft to fly. I've been on many long-haul flights where the altitude was lower due to other flights in the vicinity or adverse weather conditions.

    My recommendation for action by the western world would be for the FAA and European equivalents to ban all airline flights in Russian airspace due to safety concerns until full compliance is provided by Russia in the investigation, and all SAM batteries and Russian military personnel (we know they are there and they know that we know they are there) are withdrawn from Ukraine and the border. This would essentially stop most all commercial traffic including delivery of mail and goods to Russia or out of Russia if they did not comply. No UN sanctions would be required to put this in place, but it would cripple Russia.
    That would be absurd. There are no grounds at all to ban flights within Russian airspace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    That would be absurd. There are no grounds at all to ban flights within Russian airspace.
    Apart from Russia acting like an absolute @rse, being complicit in the murder of 298 civilians and anexing another countries territory. The sooner that posturing insecure little Putin gets thrown out of power the better off we will all be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hefferzzzz View Post
    Apart from Russia acting like an absolute @rse, being complicit in the murder of 298 civilians and anexing another countries territory. The sooner that posturing insecure little Putin gets thrown out of power the better off we will all be.
    Why are they complicit? We sell and supply weapons to many groups and countries. Are we complicit in the murder of Palestinian children because we supply Israel with equipment? Surely if it is "murder" then there must be motive and it is the people who actually fired the weapon who are responsible. If suppliers are to be complicit then we are all complicit in murder.

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    Because it's big enemy Russia. Never mind the US shooting down an Iranian airliner deliberately, or the US equipment being used by ISIS to slaughter the Iraqi military, or the unwarranted US invasion of Iraq on a pack of lies that destabilised the entire region by replacing one evil with another. Or the US looking the other way as Israel racks up more civilian casualties then MH17 in a few days whilst the world is distracted and commit genocide against Palestinians without a shred of economic sanctions in place.

    No all that can be forgiven because Russia is evil and we must return to having an axis of evil staring at the US with an EU buffer in the middle. With any luck it will annoy China too and our US-led profits can be saved as we don't have to trade with them either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Because it's big enemy Russia. Never mind the US shooting down an Iranian airliner deliberately, or the US equipment being used by ISIS to slaughter the Iraqi military, or the unwarranted US invasion of Iraq on a pack of lies that destabilised the entire region by replacing one evil with another. Or the US looking the other way as Israel racks up more civilian casualties then MH17 in a few days whilst the world is distracted and commit genocide against Palestinians without a shred of economic sanctions in place.

    No all that can be forgiven because Russia is evil and we must return to having an axis of evil staring at the US with an EU buffer in the middle. With any luck it will annoy China too and our US-led profits can be saved as we don't have to trade with them either.
    Crikey, the conspiracists are flocking like the salmon of Capistrano.

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