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General Chat Thread, Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down? in General; Originally Posted by localzuk I'd say that there are several factual inaccuracies in that post. Firstly, you're trying to say ...
  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I'd say that there are several factual inaccuracies in that post. Firstly, you're trying to say there is corruption at the top in Ukraine. No doubt at all this is true, however before the entire crisis started the corruption was rife to the extent that the leader ignored the majority desire to have greater ties with the EU because Putin told them not to. That kicked the whole thing off.

    You say Putin has troops in Crimea but not E. Ukraine, yet there is a wealth of video and photographic evidence that Russian special forces are present there - calling the shots.

    Next, you've said that Crimea was taken back into control by a vote of 90% of the population. Every international observer involved said it wasn't a fair referendum. The questions on the paper were "leave the Ukraine" or "leave the Ukraine and join Russia". There wasn't a "stay in Ukraine". As such, people who thought it was an illegitimate referendum didn't vote - the Tatars, for example (who have been experiencing increased discrimination since this all happened).

    The split isn't as clear cut as you make out either. Many of the journalists and international observers have spoken to normal people in the East, and before it became more of a military issue, the prevailing opinion was that the people wanted a bit more independence but wanted to remain part of Ukraine.

    The mainstream media isn't a great place to get information, as you say. Videos from people on the ground are a very good source though. Reports from people there etc...
    There are several factual inaccuracies in that post.
    The entire crisis started when the elected leader was ousted because some of the population desired to have greater ties with the EU. That kicked the whole thing off. They had a trade and pact with the Russian bloc that allowed, among other things preferential prices for gas on credit and free movement through Russia. The Corrupt Ukrainian government defaulted on the debt to Russia for there gas and so supplies were cut, the people rebelled and then there was a move to bring the Eu into it.
    How the hell can they negotiate and join the EU if they have trade and constitutional agreements with Russia? How can they trade with Russia and freely move about without VISAs with Russia if they are in the EU? Its a crazy idea. THIS is why Russia went into Crimea, they are Russian speaking people who wanted to be Russian. They were never Ukrainian and were an independent state of Ukraine.

    You can debate if the Crimea vote was fair or not, its irrelevant. The Crimean people are happy in this move. The Crimean people are safe in this conflict.

    The Ukraine east west split is there, its real, nitpick all you want about the finer points but its real, trust me.

    seawolf, if you have nothing to say, stfu

  2. #32

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    Sorry Galway, but that is mostly nonsense. The Crimean people are happy with the move? Not according to international observers who went there and talked to people. The Tatars certainly aren't happy!

    The fact the vote was unfair is very relevant when talking about Crimea! You have to take into account that there were hundreds/thousands of Russian soldiers on the streets and being pro-Ukraine was treated badly, with outspoken pro-Ukraine individuals receiving beatings etc...

    Regarding the issues with EU ties - the ties were the result of election promises. The people voted for those ties. They pushed for those increased EU ties democratically. It was approved by their parliament (or whatever they call it). It was only cancelled and ignored by the leader after a visit from Putin.

    It is entirely possible to have treaties with 2 areas. Having greater ties with the EU doesn't instantly exclude ties with Russia.

    Being Russian speaking is neither here nor there. We have a load of Polish speaking people in the UK now, does that give Poland the right to interfere? No, it doesn't. How about the high population of Pakistanis in Luton or Bolton? Could those areas randomly decide they're part of Pakistan now?

    There is a geographic split, but it isn't as clean cut as you say. There's a higher percentage of supporters of Russia in the east, but it is by no means all of them.
    Last edited by localzuk; 21st July 2014 at 01:42 PM.

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    The Tatars population is 12.1% of Crimea. When the vote was held the population voted for joining Russian by a landslide.

    The talk of EU ties came after they defaulted on the gas for 6 months. Russia gave them billions in aid with conditions. Where is this money now?

    What election promises with EU ties are you on about ?? Viktor Yushchenko (2005–2010) or Viktor Yanukovych (2010–2014) or Petro Poroshenko(2014–present) ??
    The elections and what the people voted is an absurd argument to pursue. The country was split more or less 50 - 50. In the end after it all kicked off its then they wanted to join the UE when the EU offered billions in debt, this was not an option for the russians.

    "It is entirely possible to have treaties with 2 areas. Having greater ties with the EU doesn't instantly exclude ties with Russia."
    It does if the Russians say that's how it will be, you forgot to mention that. HAHAHA what an absurd thing to say. If Scotland becomes independant you think its all peachy after this if they sign up to a free trade and movement agreement with a non EU state like Norway or Russia... really? you sure of that.

    Putin has repeatedly said the matter is an Ukrainian issue and needs to be sorted via diplomacy and talk.

    "There is a geographic split, but it isn't as clean cut as you say. There's a higher percentage of supporters of Russia in the east, but it is by no means all of them."
    Geez, your still splitting hairs? OK the Majority, vast majority of the people in the east support Russia instead of the Ukraine ... Happy now? want to split hairs even more? The 'Russian separatists" in Donetsk, who were pro Russian and murdered in their government building, who did that then? the Russians ?
    Last edited by Galway; 21st July 2014 at 02:13 PM.

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    CAM
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    Reports coming out that an SU-25 Ukrainian fighter flew close to the airliner just before the crash.

    MH17: Warplane 'Flew Near Doomed Airliner'
    http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-p...ussia-ukraine/

    East-West sources


    Now if this is true, I'd say it is reasonable that the jet fighter was the target. Evidence shows a SAM was responsible for hitting the jet, the militants were at one point in control of a SAM and given the anti-air activity in the area could they have been targeting the fighter and accidentally hitting the airliner instead?

    Seems a reasonable scenario to me. The fighter's warning systems may not trigger if the airliner is being locked on to instead and the militants controlling it (assuming it isn't automated) may have been confused as to who is being locked on to due to improper operation or lack of proper training. Political escalation follows and now Russia or the militants want to cover up the situation for fear of further escalation in the fighting. I'd split blame between three parties, Malaysia Airlines for flying over a warzone, Ukraine for shadowing the airliner knowing they are a target for anti-air and the militants for incompetent operation of military kit. Russia could be blamed politically for supplying the kit and escalating the situation but I doubt shooting civilian airliners was on their mind when doing it, like blaming an arms dealer for what his customers do with his guns.

    Overall verdict: Military accident through incompetence.
    Last edited by CAM; 21st July 2014 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Reports coming out that an SU-25 Ukrainian fighter flew close to the airliner just before the crash.

    MH17: Warplane 'Flew Near Doomed Airliner'
    http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-p...ussia-ukraine/

    East-West sources


    Now if this is true, I'd say it is reasonable that the jet fighter was the target. Evidence shows a SAM was responsible for hitting the jet, the militants were at one point in control of a SAM and given the anti-air activity in the area could they have been targeting the fighter and accidentally hitting the airliner instead?

    Seems a reasonable scenario to me. The fighter's warning systems may not trigger if the airliner is being locked on to instead and the militants controlling it (assuming it isn't automated) may have been confused as to who is being locked on to due to improper operation or lack of proper training. Political escalation follows and now Russia or the militants want to cover up the situation for fear of further escalation in the fighting. I'd split blame between three parties, Malaysia Airlines for flying over a warzone, Ukraine for shadowing the airliner knowing they are a target for anti-air and the militants for incompetent operation of military kit. Russia could be blamed politically for supplying the kit and escalating the situation but I doubt shooting civilian airliners was on their mind when doing it, like blaming an arms dealer for what his customers do with his guns.

    Overall verdict: Military accident through incompetence.
    Malaysia Airlines where told by the International Civil Aviation Organisation it was safe the fly over that area. It was an approved route by the ICAO. I can't see how they can be to blame.
    Last edited by FN-GM; 21st July 2014 at 05:13 PM.

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    It's a warzone with anti-air activity, it's never safe! The crash alone proves it wasn't safe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    It's a warzone with anti-air activity, it's never safe! The crash alone proves it wasn't safe!
    Your assuming the airline had this information. Do you think the airline would want one of its aircraft blowing out of the sky? Especially since MH370.

    If airlines avoided places where there is a war we would never get to the destination!
    Last edited by FN-GM; 21st July 2014 at 05:18 PM.

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    All you had to do was look at the news in the run up to the incident. Aircraft were being shot down, other airlines like British Airways were already avoiding the area. Places like Syria are also being avoided because they are warzones and dangerous (ironically MH4 went over there yesterday, they never learn!). It was only a matter of time before something like this happened and airliners never should have been allowed over Ukraine, especially straying from the normal aviation corridor.

    Malaysia Airlines can try to shift their part of the blame as much as they want, they took the risk flying over an ever changing warzone and ~300 people paid for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    All you had to do was look at the news in the run up to the incident. Aircraft were being shot down, other airlines like British Airways were already avoiding the area. Places like Syria are also being avoided because they are warzones and dangerous (ironically MH4 went over there yesterday, they never learn!). It was only a matter of time before something like this happened and airliners never should have been allowed over Ukraine, especially straying from the normal aviation corridor.

    Malaysia Airlines can try to shift their part of the blame as much as they want, they took the risk flying over an ever changing warzone and ~300 people paid for it.
    The International Civil Aviation Organisation shouldn't had advised it was safe.

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    Then I hope the airline and the ICAA take a big learning point from this investigation, don't fly over warzones!

    Plus you still have to question if other airlines were avoiding the route believing it poses a risk, why did Malaysian Airlines still fly over it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Then I hope the airline and the ICAA take a big learning point from this investigation, don't fly over warzones!

    Plus you still have to question if other airlines were avoiding the route believing it poses a risk, why did Malaysian Airlines still fly over it?
    A lot of the airlines that the media claim avoided the air space don't actually have routes over it. For example they where going on about Qantas not flying over the Ukraine. They didn't do anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Reports coming out that an SU-25 Ukrainian fighter flew close to the airliner just before the crash.

    MH17: Warplane 'Flew Near Doomed Airliner'
    The first 4 paragraphs of that are hilarious.

    "A Ukrainian military plane flew within 3-5km of flight MH17 just before the Malaysian aircraft crashed, the Russian Defence Ministry has claimed."

    Translation : People shoot at military planes in a war zone. It's Ukraines fault for causing a provocation.

    "Moscow has also denied supplying pro-Russian rebels with BUK missile systems - the weapon that is suspected of bringing down the passenger plane - or any other military hardware."

    Translation : The rebels don't have any missiles that could shoot it down.

    "It said it detected the Ukrainian SU-25 combat jet on radar and noticed an increase in radar activity just before the Malaysian Airlines jet carrying 298 people was destroyed."

    Translation : If we only just noticed something then it wasn't us! Honest guvn'r.

    "It also said Ukrainian air defence forces had three or four battalions of BUK-M1 systems on combat duty on the day of the crash."

    Translation : The Ukrainians did it. Shot down a civilian airliner having provoked themselves by flying their own fighter next to it.

    It's the very latest in "war on"; war on information.

    Unless MH17 was in some trouble, then it would have been identifying itself as a civilian airliner when asked - part of the IFF system. Anyone at the business end of the missile system should know the airliner is there.
    Last edited by pcstru; 21st July 2014 at 05:52 PM.

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    You have to remember, this is Ukraine Odessa: Western media protect the puppeteers of a massmurder - Englisch | Medien-Klagemauer.TV

    Watch at home, works in IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAM View Post
    Reports coming out that an SU-25 Ukrainian fighter flew close to the airliner just before the crash.

    MH17: Warplane 'Flew Near Doomed Airliner'
    http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-p...ussia-ukraine/

    East-West sources


    Now if this is true, I'd say it is reasonable that the jet fighter was the target. Evidence shows a SAM was responsible for hitting the jet, the militants were at one point in control of a SAM and given the anti-air activity in the area could they have been targeting the fighter and accidentally hitting the airliner instead?

    Seems a reasonable scenario to me. The fighter's warning systems may not trigger if the airliner is being locked on to instead and the militants controlling it (assuming it isn't automated) may have been confused as to who is being locked on to due to improper operation or lack of proper training. Political escalation follows and now Russia or the militants want to cover up the situation for fear of further escalation in the fighting. I'd split blame between three parties, Malaysia Airlines for flying over a warzone, Ukraine for shadowing the airliner knowing they are a target for anti-air and the militants for incompetent operation of military kit. Russia could be blamed politically for supplying the kit and escalating the situation but I doubt shooting civilian airliners was on their mind when doing it, like blaming an arms dealer for what his customers do with his guns.

    Overall verdict: Military accident through incompetence.
    Well I'm sure the families of those who died will sleep well tonight knowing that - even if it is the case.

    I couldn't get your 2nd link to work, but the first is just quoting the Russian Defence Ministry - hardly a reliable, unbiased source of information! I suspect that it was an accidental shooting down (IFF isn't infallible and may not be used by that equipment or even get a reply if it did) but I also suspect that it was done by separatists using Russian supplied hardware.

    What hasn't helped their cause is the apparent reluctance to let outside experts examine the wreckage and that some of it has been taken away. If you have nothing to hide, why make things so difficult?

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    CAM
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    Erm, that's pretty much the same conclusion I came to. Seperatists shot it down due to a screw up.



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