General Chat Thread, Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down? in General; Originally Posted by DaveP
@ penfold_99 : Your reply seems incomplete.
a case of fat fingers on the iphone app....
20th July 2014, 10:39 AM #16
a case of fat fingers on the iphone app.
Originally Posted by DaveP
20th July 2014, 12:36 PM #17
Yes I think this is rapidly approaching the point of military intervention in the immediate area of the crash site.
Airdrop special forces in to secure the perimeter then bring in the rest, as you say use the military of all affected countries.
There's very few things that quickly unites politicians than intervening into securing a proper crash investigation
20th July 2014, 12:59 PM #18
@Dos_Box I wasn't implying that there would be a nuclear war over this. Only that a country holding nuclear weapons hasn't stopped wars from being fought with or against those countries (e.g. Korean War, Vietnam War, Gulf War, 9/11, Soviet War in Afghanistan, Chechnya war, etc. etc.).
If severe sanctions or embargoes were placed on Russia, they would be likely to retaliate militarily if it began to impact them in any substantial way. Backing a tiger into a corner is only going to result in one thing - a nasty fight. The only way this ends peacefully is if everyone is happy to forgive and forget or Russia backs down tail between its legs, and I'm not seeing anything that indicates either is likely to happen real soon. Escalation is the most likely outcome.
20th July 2014, 03:23 PM #19
Really? You're making a rather large assumption there, that sanity will prevail over all people who have control over these weapons. I for one am not 100% confident of that sanity.
Originally Posted by Dos_Box
Very difficult to do when you've got the "rebels" on the ground moving everything and preventing investigators from going to the site.
Now we must play a waiting game until all of the evidence is gathered and in place until concreat blame can be laid, even if the POTUS (President of the United States) has pointed fingers today.
You're underestimating the Russians I fear. There's a difference between "need" and "want" and its especially pronounced in Russia. The people of Russia have endured great hardships, yet they have managed to produce some amazing technologies - which the West has looked to for help at times. Saying they need the rest of the world ignores this, and also ignores the whole "nationalistic pride" of Russia. Think back to Japan entering WW2. Why did Japan attack America? Because America backed them into a corner regarding oil. If the world isolated Russia to the extent implied in your post, do you really think they'd just sit back, apologise and give up? Or do you think they'd fight?
This is not the cold war, and as much as president Putin may seem to be trying to reassemble the old USSR, they now exist in a globalised world and with all that entails.
What this means for Russia is that if the UN choose to introduce further sactions (they are already under some financial ones), it could hurt Russia far more than a localised conflict ever would.
Perhaps banning the import of CPU's, computers and networking kit? How about mobile telephony equipment?
As I said, it's a gloablised world and it's a long time since Russia manufactured everything it required.
That is of course if the crime was commited by those under their influance using equipment they supplied.
I don't think this will be a quick escalation to all out war. I am more of the mind that this will escalate to a second cold war. Its the world Putin grew powerful in. He understands that world and its pretty clear he wants a return to it.
20th July 2014, 08:36 PM #20
I tend to agree. Putin is a dangerous man and harks for a return to the days when the Soviet Union was a world superpower. If he's happy to invade Eastern Ukraine (by proxy) on the pretext that Russian nationals are being subverted, then I wouldn't put anything past him.
Originally Posted by localzuk
The Russians have huge natural resources and for some part have us and other countries by the short and curlies by supplying natural gas - so in some ways we need them more than they need us. However no country can exist in total isolation these days and I think that fear may be the thing that holds Putin back.
21st July 2014, 08:51 AM #21
Information and mis-information.
The problem the UK populous has is that we are not being supplied factual information, but are drip fed lies anh half truths. look at the story bellow.
BBC News - MH17 crash: Cameron urges Putin to allow site access
Anyone see anything puzzling ? Well, the plane crashed in the Ukraine. Putin has troops in Crimea but not Ukraine, if he did the Ukraine would be screaming from the rooftops. The situation in the Ukraine has been created by efforts to de-stabilize the country with debt, corruption and misuse of power right at the top.
Very few know what's going on in blighty about Ukraine, same as Syria, Israel and the Gaza.
For those that are interested, I have found liveleak and the middle eastern news agencies far superior.
Basically the Ukraine is split into pro Ukraine (west) and the pro Russian (east). Crimea has already been brought back into Russian control as agreed by a vote of 90% of the population. The Russian rebels (inaccurate as they are Ukrainian) , are the Ukraine people who reject the rule of the Pro Ukraine. The whole situation is made a whole lot better with EU help offering billions in debt to Ukraine, the US supplying arms and funding to as many terroists it can find so that it insures more funding to its global spy network.
The whole thing stinks, the whole arab uprising has been done to destabilise the middle east but will backfire big time as the world sinks deeper into unrest and civil war.
21st July 2014, 09:01 AM #22
Got to admit, I don't trust the information coming out of Ukraine either and this is down to me drawing information from 2 Western sources (BBC, Sky News) and two eastern sources (Al-Jazeera, Russia Today). Seeing both sides of the story, there is no clear picture as to what is going on. What one side says, the other denies and says the opposite.
As Angela Merkel said, it is too early to draw conclusions. But one thing I have noticed is Western media is behaving in a dangerous and firebrand manner leading me to question the truth.
For the record, my opinion is the Donetsk militants may have shot the craft down by accident through misidentification. They have been under air attack and already shot down a lot of aircraft, I can easily see some untrained militants panicking at an airliner going overhead if they get hold of sophisticated anti-air kit and failing to properly identify it. The question is why fly over a warzone with an anti-air war going on!?!?
That then makes me question why the plane was diverted further North then it should have been and why it was told to fly lower then it should have been. For all we know, Ukraine may have been hoping for this outcome to rally support. Brutal and harsh, but I don't trust the current government in Kiev right now. Again, multiple sources.
Last edited by CAM; 21st July 2014 at 09:03 AM.
21st July 2014, 09:07 AM #23
Unlikely. At the fall of the Berlin wall, Russia was economically destitute - barely able to feed their people, let alone maintain a large, modern military. They had to have aid to safely scrap a number of their nuclear submarines. Their current resurgence is based mainly on oil, gas and coal exports, about 60% of which is to Europe, 30% to Asia. Europe easily can't stop buying Russian Gas and Oil (but especially gas) or lights will be going out and people will be cold this winter. Putin might be viewed in the west as a little unpleasant, but the politicians know voters subjected to cold, dark winters don't vote them back into power.
Originally Posted by localzuk
As outrages go, shooting down a plane doesn't rate very highly anyway. The Captain of the USS, William Rogers III was awarded the Legion of Merit for "exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding service as commanding officer from April 1987 to May 1989". Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down on 3rd July 1988, killing 290 people, including 66 children.
21st July 2014, 09:09 AM #24
21st July 2014, 09:14 AM #25
I'd say that there are several factual inaccuracies in that post. Firstly, you're trying to say there is corruption at the top in Ukraine. No doubt at all this is true, however before the entire crisis started the corruption was rife to the extent that the leader ignored the majority desire to have greater ties with the EU because Putin told them not to. That kicked the whole thing off.
Originally Posted by Galway
You say Putin has troops in Crimea but not E. Ukraine, yet there is a wealth of video and photographic evidence that Russian special forces are present there - calling the shots.
Next, you've said that Crimea was taken back into control by a vote of 90% of the population. Every international observer involved said it wasn't a fair referendum. The questions on the paper were "leave the Ukraine" or "leave the Ukraine and join Russia". There wasn't a "stay in Ukraine". As such, people who thought it was an illegitimate referendum didn't vote - the Tatars, for example (who have been experiencing increased discrimination since this all happened).
The split isn't as clear cut as you make out either. Many of the journalists and international observers have spoken to normal people in the East, and before it became more of a military issue, the prevailing opinion was that the people wanted a bit more independence but wanted to remain part of Ukraine.
The mainstream media isn't a great place to get information, as you say. Videos from people on the ground are a very good source though. Reports from people there etc...
Originally Posted by CAM
The plane diverted to avoid storms further north. There weren't any exclusion zones in place either.
Last edited by localzuk; 21st July 2014 at 09:20 AM.
2 Thanks to localzuk:
CAM (21st July 2014), Hefferzzzz (21st July 2014)
21st July 2014, 09:54 AM #26
Blimey, the conspiracy theorist (Galway) is back.
21st July 2014, 09:57 AM #27
Reports from FlightRadar24 that Malaysia Airlines are still skirting fate and flew flight MH4 directly over Homs in Syria yesterday, the only flight recorded doing so.
21st July 2014, 10:01 AM #28
Quite a different situation really, and one that I had privy to the source information used in the investigation as well as information that was not and could not be disclosed then or now. If you want to discuss that though, best to fork the thread,
Originally Posted by pcstru
21st July 2014, 10:05 AM #29
Proberly best to wait until an official inquiry is finished but given what is happen in Ukraine at the moment we could be waiting for a long time
21st July 2014, 10:13 AM #30
I'd say that was simplistic too. The IFES poll in 2013 indicated significant differences in opinion geographically within the Ukraine, tro a number of issues from corruption to links with the EU or Russia.
Originally Posted by localzuk
"Respondents were also asked about Ukraine possibly taking steps to join the European Union (EU) or the Customs Union. Opinions are divided, with 37 percent of Ukrainians indicating support for the country to join the EU and 33 percent indicating preference for the Customs Union. There are significant regional differences on this issue as there is greater support for Ukraine taking steps to join the EU rather than the Customs Union in the West (73 percent versus 5 percent) and in Kyiv (64 percent versus 10 percent), while there is greater support for joining the Customs Unions rather than taking steps to join the EU in the South (62 percent versus 14 percent) and the East (46 percent versus 20 percent). "
Part of this is a legacy from the days of the USSR, when tens of thousands of Russians were 'planted' in soviet block countries as a means of strengthening the hold of the Kremlin over the satellite states. Now it is those ethnic Russians who form the core of the separatist movements. Could any Russian government just leave them to their fate? If they don't support them they risk an influx of refugees as ex soviet puppet states look to reclaim their independence and 'right the wrongs' of the Soviet era.
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