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General Chat Thread, Malaysia Airlines MH17 Lost Over Ukraine - Shot Down? in General; "I posted had a woman being interviewed by Richard Phillips, who was working for RT." I presume you mean Graham, ...
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    "I posted had a woman being interviewed by Richard Phillips, who was working for RT." I presume you mean Graham, I will go with this and not make a fuss over it if its ok.

    I knew he had been deported to the UK, after being arrested and allegedly stripped of his bullet proof vest and belongings, as you say I linked it earlier. I also know hes equipment was wiped ( to protect what?) but I don't know his exact whereabouts. Why you take exception to me not posting this, when I was only just commenting on a post you made is unclear.
    Of course, if there was footage of his capture or the events after this were at hand or we had anything to evaluate then were only going to be able to speculate indeed when he said he was shot at. I think looking at the clip he mistook the flare and firecracker sounds as an attempted shooting, which RT themselves said shortly after. He was clearly shook up by the incident, and he was there when he was told not to as it was dangerous. Anyway, he a british national ( I know! can u believe it!) and the BBC are covering it: BBC News - British journalist Graham Phillips held in Ukraine

    Your views and my views on the sexual matters discussed would be an interesting thread, but is thankfully beyond the scope of this thread. What I will say is the law was passed with a view to protecting the interests of children. If the Russians consider this to be required, then who am I to use my moral values to argue for or against.

    Your question about my nationality is interesting. Clearly you are thinking it unlikely any Yorkshire person could be defending the Russians and doubting the 'news' presented through 'our' media.

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    I don't know about WW3 breaking out with Russia, but I'm sure getting scared of this forum!

  3. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    "I posted had a woman being interviewed by Richard Phillips, who was working for RT." I presume you mean Graham, I will go with this and not make a fuss over it if its ok.
    Indeed, dunno why my brain changed Graham to Richard there.

    I knew he had been deported to the UK, after being arrested and allegedly stripped of his bullet proof vest and belongings, as you say I linked it earlier. I also know hes equipment was wiped ( to protect what?) but I don't know his exact whereabouts. Why you take exception to me not posting this, when I was only just commenting on a post you made is unclear.
    Of course, if there was footage of his capture or the events after this were at hand or we had anything to evaluate then were only going to be able to speculate indeed when he said he was shot at. I think looking at the clip he mistook the flare and firecracker sounds as an attempted shooting, which RT themselves said shortly after. He was clearly shook up by the incident, and he was there when he was told not to as it was dangerous. Anyway, he a british national ( I know! can u believe it!) and the BBC are covering it: BBC News - British journalist Graham Phillips held in Ukraine
    Actually, you don't *know* his equipment was wiped. You know he said his equipment was wiped. I've not seen any confirmation of this yet. To be fair, our police often go overboard and do things like that too - just look at the whole Snowden info/Guardian thing a while back.

    Your views and my views on the sexual matters discussed would be an interesting thread, but is thankfully beyond the scope of this thread. What I will say is the law was passed with a view to protecting the interests of children. If the Russians consider this to be required, then who am I to use my moral values to argue for or against.
    You are a free thinking person with your own moral values. Just like I am. It is entirely acceptable to attack a country for an unjust and poorly thought out law that is based on incorrect assertions and discrimination. The UK constantly tries to introduce laws "in the interests of children" and we still complain about them. For example the ill thought out internet filtering nonsense.

    Your question about my nationality is interesting. Clearly you are thinking it unlikely any Yorkshire person could be defending the Russians and doubting the 'news' presented through 'our' media.
    Nope. You're taking an inference from the question. I was just being inquisitive. See how easy it is to manipulate what someone says?

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I've just realised something. @Galway, you focus on largely overt things - like journalists being "beaten" or being shot at, whereas I'm focusing on relatively subtle things like the constitutional difference between the Prime Minister and President resigning, and about journalists asking leading questions for example. It goes a long way to explaining our difference of opinion here.
    I am offering an alternate view. You brought up the shooting journalists in trying to reason your discrediting of RT, I looked at and do not think your justifications in mentioning it are valid. Indeed I think you finding what you did in it to justify posting it made me chuckle.

    To be honest, I think the USA are sore that Russia proved itself oh so easy to take back Ukraine, and saved the people there from a civil war. Now this concerns how shooting down a civilian plane or influencing the shooting down of a civilian plane helps their cause? I mean, its not the first time the Ukraine has shot down a civilian place, only this time the finger pointers are out in force.

    "Actually, you don't *know* his equipment was wiped. You know he said his equipment was wiped. I've not seen any confirmation of this yet. To be fair, our police often go overboard and do things like that too - just look at the whole Snowden info/Guardian thing a while back."

    Your right, im sure he could have taken blank media with him. He could have wiped it, or the Ukrainians who arrested him wiped it, hell ! he could have dropped it and erased it all by damage.
    Im willing to, after carefully evaluating the issue, and without the benefit of 'confirmation' I think its not unreasonable to assume his version.
    Last edited by Galway; 26th July 2014 at 10:42 PM.

  5. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    I am offering an alternate view. You brought up the shooting journalists in trying to reason your discrediting of RT, I looked at and do not think your justifications in mentioning it are valid. Indeed I think you finding what you did in it to justify posting it made me chuckle.
    I didn't mention the shooting part at all. I highlighted a transcript of a conversation with leading questions. Look back, you'll see that I didn't mention the shooting at all, and then was very confused as to why you were bringing it up.

    To be honest, I think the USA are sore that Russia proved itself oh so easy to take back Ukraine, and saved the people there from a civil war. Now this concerns how shooting down a civilian plane or influencing the shooting down of a civilian plane helps their cause? I mean, its not the first time the Ukraine has shot down a civilian place, only this time the finger pointers are out in force.
    The USA are annoyed, absolutely. However, I don't think Russia has stopped anything happening - they've caused a civil war in the East. There's video evidence of Russia actually shooting at Ukraine army positions now too, so they're actually encouraging a civil war.

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I didn't mention the shooting part at all. I highlighted a transcript of a conversation with leading questions. Look back, you'll see that I didn't mention the shooting at all, and then was very confused as to why you were bringing it up.
    Oh man, this is getting silly. You discredited RT with an example of a transcript. The transcript and video was bizarre. Quite what you were trying to prove with it im not sure, but it was presented and I looked at it. What did catch my eye was the first link "The context is that an (already discredited) stringer for the Kremlin propaganda network RT". This I could comment on, and it was relative to the accusations made that RT are unreliable by this journo. Your making a point about not mentioning the shooting? Again bizzare! If it makes you feel better, scratch up the mentioning of the shooting to me !

    The interview was .. different. Its a British guy not getting the answers he wanted that's for sure. Im not a journalist, but they seam to be think skinned and seam to go on the theory of 'if you ask enough questions you eventually get a story that feeds you until the next one'. Still .. He has a video and and strong spirit and im sure with a clean pair of underwear will be working again soon

  7. #142

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    Do you understand the concept of leading questions? IE. Asking questions in such a way as to lead the interviewee to respond in a certain way. The link I posted shows an interview filled with such questions. A journalist should ask questions such as "what are your feelings on the current situation?" not say things like "but they killed children!!"

    The point of the link along with the other info, for example 2 separate journalists resigning, was to show a bias. To show that RT has a habit of twisting things to present a pro-Russia/anti-Ukraine narrative. The stopfake site has dozens more examples.
    Last edited by localzuk; 26th July 2014 at 11:35 PM.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Do you understand the concept of leading questions? .
    Nice one

    Finally we can nail this particular (most important) point to rest. You should be able to trust the Journalists viewpoint as indicative of the situation presented. Does this say something about the type of people willing to risk their lives in these situations, or is it imprinted into them. Im not convinced i can write off the whole agency and information presented, but you are perfectly at liberty to do so if you feel this is so.

  9. #144

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    I don't think I could follow that thinking personally, but hey to each their own... People do things for many reasons, such as accolades, money, or other more nefarious reasons. I don't trust someone just because they'll go into a dangerous situation.

    An unrelated example for you: the BBC have a habit of altering the numbers of people present at protest marches in the UK. Things like careful cropping of imagery, or using police figures over the figures of organisers etc... It is *really* easy to manipulate such information and as such you shouldn't take journalists based purely on them being there.

    Another example, a while ago the Daily Mail started a string of false publishing a while back regarding a Polish dentist removing all the teeth in her ex's mouth. Turns out, the entire article was fabricated by one of their agency contacts and a journalist's name was attributed to it. The journalist in question had never even seen the story!

  10. #145
    Galway's Avatar
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    What do you make of this one.

    WHISTLEBLOWER: U.S. Satellite Images Show Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17 (video) | Peace . Gold . LOVE

    Not checked into it yet, and know nothing about Robert Parry or if he did put his name to this.
    Still checking out the phosphorous incident in Slavyansk (Posted earlier - not commented on) fired on and killing civilians.
    Last edited by Galway; 27th July 2014 at 06:15 PM.

  11. #146

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    Its in interesting one, but is very difficult to believe without any actual evidence. One journalist saying it, with their source being anonymous doesn't carry a lot of weight.

    There's also the conspiracy theory that MH-17 was actually MH-320 and its a giant false flag operation... Which seems a little far fetched, to say the least.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Its in interesting one, but is very difficult to believe without any actual evidence. One journalist saying it, with their source being anonymous doesn't carry a lot of weight.

    LiveLeak.com - Breaking: Ukraine army Buk system footage just before shooting down Flight MH17
    Basically he says look at this video. Its was posted on the Ukrainian army website on the date circled in the clip and showing a current deployment in Ukraine.
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=855_1406479694
    With some English information.

    John McCain Sounds legit, Ukraine don't have these weapons, and they might get US assistance to help 'defend themselves.

    Also a nice RT piece about a US government information release, where a certain British journo was involved. Apparently the Us wasn't aware the the Ukrainians had him.
    Shes very defensive, it shows you how this is being covered in the US.
    http://rt.com/usa/175388-state-department-briefing/
    Last edited by Galway; 27th July 2014 at 09:13 PM.

  13. #148

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    Quote Originally Posted by truebluesteve View Post
    I bailed ages ago trying to argue with him about this for exactly the same reason. That's the problem with conspiracy theorists! It's impossible to have a reasoned debate because so many of them are unable to critically analyse sources of information.

    Rumour has it that Neil Armstrong didn't actually set foot on the moon....
    I remember having to Critically analyse news reports when I did modern world history and we studied things like the Manchurian and Abyssinian crisis's. The bottom line in ANY conflict is that YOU CANT TRUST A WORD ANYONE SAYS ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE AN AGENDA! So you cannot trust Russian news any more than you can trust Ukrainian news. Just like you can't trust UK, US or European news agencies to be unbiased either. The skill that most people seem to be lacking is that you have to UNDERSTAND that what you're watching/reading/hearing is 10% fact, 90% male-cow-excrement and you have to read/watch/listen/form opinions bearing in mind that what has just been presented to you may not be COMPLETE or 100% ACCURATE. Which is why it often pays to read multiple sources from both sides of the conflict and assume that the truth lies somewhere in the middle (privately I like to call this the 'Media Median').

    As an example: Let us say Anti-Russian media provides 'proof' and exposition on how Russia is incontrovertibly responsible for MH17. Then lets look at Pro-Russian media which 'proves' incontrovertibly that Anti-Russian troops are responsible for MH17. They can't BOTH be responsible so the art of critical thinking is to look at the evidence presented, read other news articles to flesh out the scene a bit more and then decide for yourself which is more LIKELY. So lets say that Anti-Russian news agencies report on Russian military attacking a civilian village 2 miles away from where the missile was launched. With photographs and videos. This places the Russian Military in the area, so if, for example, pro-russian media categorically states that Russian ground troops weren't with 20 miles of the launch site, we immediately have evidence to the contrary. And so it goes on. It's all about forming your own conclusions based on what is essentially probability and statistical mathematics.

    Well, that's how I do it anyway. Unless I was right there witnessing it happen I always keep an open mind on Guilt/Innocence.

    Before people start screeching about the above, I should stress that it is an ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE OF HOW I, PERSONALLY, GO ABOUT ASSESSING NEWS REPORTS and is not in ANY WAY representative of fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Um, lets keep this civil shall we before it moves too far away from being a discussion
    I know, right? Reading this thread is torturous! It seems there have been a number of 'inflamed' threads recently and it seems to be the same subset of users each time.

    Quote Originally Posted by DPrince View Post
    I don't know about WW3 breaking out with Russia, but I'm sure getting scared of this forum!
    Agreed. Also, re: WW3 I wouldn't be at all surprised if that wasn't where we are heading. After all, North Korea aren't at all happy with the US (or South Korea for that matter) over that James Franco film amongst other things (they have allegedly released a statement calling it an act of war but I'll take that with a pinch of salt), so I can see things kicking off in North Korea, things are already kicking off in Russia and the Ukraine, we have the usual Israel/Palestine/Gaza conflict flaring up, the Arab spring is still rumbling along a bit with what is going on in Syria with ISIS and other middle eastern countries, Iraq and Afghanistan are still moderately unresolved (otherwise my cousin wouldn't be facing his third tour in Af. would he?), we have the Boko Haram stuff going on in Nigeria etc etc. All these things are involving multiple countries so I would not be at all surprised for WW3 to be declared.
    Last edited by AMLightfoot; 28th July 2014 at 12:56 PM.

  14. 2 Thanks to AMLightfoot:

    localzuk (28th July 2014), SiliconAlley_Sam (28th July 2014)

  15. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMLightfoot View Post
    I remember having to Critically analyse news reports when I did modern world history and we studied things like the Manchurian and Abyssinian crisis's. The bottom line in ANY conflict is that YOU CANT TRUST A WORD ANYONE SAYS ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE AN AGENDA! So you cannot trust Russian news any more than you can trust Ukrainian news. Just like you can't trust UK, US or European news agencies to be unbiased either. The skill that most people seem to be lacking is that you have to UNDERSTAND that what you're watching/reading/hearing is 10% fact, 90% male-cow-excrement and you have to read/watch/listen/form opinions bearing in mind that what has just been presented to you may not be COMPLETE or 100% ACCURATE. Which is why it often pays to read multiple sources from both sides of the conflict and assume that the truth lies somewhere in the middle (privately I like to call this the 'Media Median').

    As an example: Let us say Anti-Russian media provides 'proof' and exposition on how Russia in incontrovertibly responsible for MH17. Then lets look at Pro-Russian media which 'proves' incontrovertibly that Anti-Russian troops are responsible for MH17. They can't BOTH be responsible so the art of critical thinking is to look at the evidence presented, read other news articles to flesh out the scene a bit more and then decide for yourself which is more LIKELY. So lets say that Anti-Russian news agencies report on Russian military attacking a civilian village 2 miles away from where the missile was launched. With photographs and videos. This places the Russian Military in the area, so if, for example, pro-russian media categorically states that Russian ground troops weren't with 20 miles of the launch site, we immediately have evidence to the contrary. And so it goes on. It's all about forming your own conclusions based on what is essentially probability and statistical mathematics.

    Well, that's how I do it anyway. Unless I was right there witnessing it happen I always keep an open mind on Guilt/Innocence.
    Absolutely. The problem we have here is that both sides are turning to each other and shouting "photoshopped!" about the photos and videos. So, its difficult to draw any conclusion other than "it was shot down, it looks like it could have been a Russian system in the hands of rebels, but we just don't know, and likely will never know due to the site being messed about with". America released a set of photos yesterday showing that it was highly likely that rocket systems have been fired from Russian territory into Ukrainian territory. Within hours, there were articles from RT and RIA Novosti stating that the evidence was not evidence at all...

    Agreed. Also, re: WW3 I wouldn't be at all surprised if that wasn't where we are heading. After all, North Korea aren't at all happy with the US (or South Korea for that matter) over that James Franco film amongst other things (they have allegedly released a statement calling it an act of war but I'll take that with a pinch of salt), so I can see things kicking off in North Korea, things are already kicking off in Russia and the Ukraine, we have the usual Israel/Palestine/Gaza conflict flaring up, the Arab spring is still rumbling along a bit with what is going on in Syria with ISIS and other middle eastern countries, Iraq and Afghanistan are still moderately unresolved (otherwise my cousin wouldn't be facing his third tour in Af. would he?), we have the Boko Haram stuff going on in Nigeria etc etc. All these things are involving multiple countries so I would not be at all surprised for WW3 to be declared.
    I doubt North Korea would be much of an issue - sure they have some rockets but they've got a very poor history of reliability and accuracy, and their standing army are very poorly armed. If North Korea kicked off, I doubt China would do much except try to keep it away from their own land - they prefer an easy life and don't like to interfere with other countries' affairs.

    The Middle East is a real powder keg that could ignite significantly - especially if ISIS continues as well as they are (although, many are pointing out that ISIS aren't quite as strong as they seem but are very good at PR).

    Israel would undoutably win any conflict in the Middle East - they're armed to the teeth, and all the surrounding areas have weakened military forces due to recent wars of their own.

    I think we may actually look back at this entire period as WW3 if anything - its been a continual set of wars, all inter-linked, since 9/11. Its just not happening directly in Europe like the last 2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Absolutely. The problem we have here is that both sides are turning to each other and shouting "photoshopped!" about the photos and videos. So, its difficult to draw any conclusion other than "it was shot down, it looks like it could have been a Russian system in the hands of rebels, but we just don't know, and likely will never know due to the site being messed about with". America released a set of photos yesterday showing that it was highly likely that rocket systems have been fired from Russian territory into Ukrainian territory. Within hours, there were articles from RT and RIA Novosti stating that the evidence was not evidence at all...



    I doubt North Korea would be much of an issue - sure they have some rockets but they've got a very poor history of reliability and accuracy, and their standing army are very poorly armed. If North Korea kicked off, I doubt China would do much except try to keep it away from their own land - they prefer an easy life and don't like to interfere with other countries' affairs.

    The Middle East is a real powder keg that could ignite significantly - especially if ISIS continues as well as they are (although, many are pointing out that ISIS aren't quite as strong as they seem but are very good at PR).

    Israel would undoutably win any conflict in the Middle East - they're armed to the teeth, and all the surrounding areas have weakened military forces due to recent wars of their own.

    I think we may actually look back at this entire period as WW3 if anything - its been a continual set of wars, all inter-linked, since 9/11. Its just not happening directly in Europe like the last 2.
    I recently saw conflicting news articles about how ISIS is forcing all women and girls in their occupied territory to undergo FGM. Cue massive uproar on the internet. I then read a bunch of articles that said it was anti-ISIS propaganda. What I think is more likely is that ISIS are promoting Sharia Law with it's myriad good and bad points and SOME women MAY have been subjected to Sharia-related justice practices and that someone has heard about women being subjected to Sharia law and made the leap to FGM. I can't see, given the situation they are in and the lack of enforceability, that FGM will be particularly high on the ISIS agenda - at least not right now. Maybe in future when they've taken over the whole country and have an iron grip on the populace, but probably not right now. This is a perfect example of not being able to take statements at face value in the media.

    I'm certainly not sure North Korea has the power to affect large countries like China, Russia and the USA, but if they DID wade into the fray it would be likely their actions would just be disruptive rather than seriously threatening, but even small actions can have ripples of consequence so it is certainly worth keeping them in your peripheral vision (so to speak).

    I think that regardless of whether it was Russian troops, pro-Russian separatists or anti-Russian fighters that fired the missile, the bottom line is that an innocent passenger jet full of people who had (to the best of my understanding) nothing to do with the Ukraine conflict was shot down as a result of the conflict occurring in the area and it was an appalling tragedy and SOMEONE needs to be held accountable.



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