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General Chat Thread, Another rushed law, another death knell for privacy in General; Originally Posted by Alkaline Nothing to fear, nothing to hide. Wasn't this attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels, either him ...
  1. #61

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alkaline View Post
    Nothing to fear, nothing to hide.
    Wasn't this attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels, either him or from Orwell's vision of a dystopian future. Neither of these sources make it a very good talking point to just let this kind of law slide.

    http://forum.quoteland.com/eve/forum...1/m/4013910277

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  3. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I trust someone who stands up for what is right more than someone who obsessively follows poor laws. A traitor is someone who does something to damage a country. Many don't believe what he did actually did any damage, but instead did good as it meant the tide of surveillance was looked at.
    Actually, a traitor is someone who "betrays something" or "commits treason". A lot of traitors in the US, who were subsequently executed, didn't necessarily cause any "damage". And whether or not Snowden caused damage to his country is debatable. Many claim he didn't, but those that would be considered "in the know" are of the opinion that he did.

    Playing Devil's advocate here... when bees develop the capacity to develop nuclear arms, I'm sure our spending on the War on Bees will increase significantly.

  4. #63

    Theblacksheep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    My attitude towards this law change has no real bearing on my life so why should I care?
    Divide and conquer, it doesn't affect you, so don't stand up for your rights?

    You're in a union right? Why if issues their petty issues don't affect you? (guessing for your own protection)

    Unions have power, people have power, until they take up the apathetic selfish attitude of 'if it doesn't affect me'. One day something you care about will affect you and no one will stand with you. Thatcher was annoyingly right, there are only individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by DPrince View Post
    those that would be considered "in the know" are of the opinion that he did.
    ... have an agenda. They are pissed off the cat has been let out of the bag. They are annoyed they have to explain themselves, justify spending, lost jobs and have been caught lying to congress when sworn under oath, they are traitors.

    Their ILLEGAL exploits of systems have been exposed, companies have reacted and closed loopholes. These loop holes that could be exploited by anyone, not just GHCQ/NSA. They have been pushing and creating illegal malware, infecting anything from DELL FIRMWARE to client browsers, both intercepting hardware en-route or post setup.


    Even infecting Slashdot for the purposes of targeting people like us because we hold the keys to many users.

    This is about capturing ALL DATA and wont stop at META.
    Last edited by Theblacksheep; 14th July 2014 at 03:22 PM.

  5. #64

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    It's not the data that differs, it's the method of collection. The government already has plenty of data on me, if my web surfing habits are of that much interest <shrugs>. Collection of data is a meaningless distraction. Application of data, now that's something else entirely. If the government feels its cost effective having someone sit outside my house logging my comings and goings for no other reason than to keep a log, good on them. I only have two questions for them - why do they need to know when I arrive home, and who has access to this information?
    ISPs didn't used to collect this information. Back when RIPA came in, ISPs pointed out that to do so would cost them millions to install equipment to do it. Can you imagine how much storage would be needed to track the customers of BT? I have 2.5GB of web data stored for our network, covering 1 month of daytime usage for 600 users. Scale that up to, say, 10 million customers and to 24 months and you've hit a petabyte of data, and that's conservative as it doesn't cover quite a lot of the mandated data they have to keep. The government ended up having to subsidise the cost.

    You're looking at these laws as if they're individuals when they aren't. Each one is the precursor to the next.

    I got stopped a couple of months bike driving home. Was asked where my journey started and where I was heading to. All drivers on that stretch of road where stopped and asked the same to questions. Did I think invasion of privacy? Or did I think traffic planning?
    You don't have to answer those questions. You only have to pull over when ordered to by the police. You can say "I don't wish to answer those questions" and you'll be sent on your way.

    If the law says - "police officer must apply to a judge for a warrant to access ISP held data", no problem. If the law says - "rent officer can randomly access database to see what times I'm at home", I have a problem. I don't have a problem with the data retention, just the data application.
    That's what I've said multiple times. The law says the police, councils, DEFRA, dept of education, etc... can access the information without a warrant. That's exactly what these laws, when put together, do.

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  7. #65
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    @tcmd35

    Think your hitting it better on the nail then I am.

    As always my posts being ripped apart now wonder why some don't discuss properly any more these days.

  8. #66

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    As always my posts being ripped apart now wonder why some don't discuss properly any more these days.
    This is a perennial cry of someone who is unable to present a good argument. I've seen it over and over again. Usually followed shortly by "I'm out"...

    State your argument, clearly, and people will respond. If your argument is flawed, people will pull it apart. That's a discussion. That's just how it happens on a forum.

    I have my arguments ripped apart all the time. I'm used to it. Its one of the reasons I'm so blunt.

  9. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theblacksheep View Post
    ... have an agenda. They are pissed off the cat has been let out of the bag. They are annoyed they have to explain themselves, justify spending, lost jobs and have been caught lying to congress when sworn under oath, they are traitors.

    Their ILLEGAL exploits of systems have been exposed, companies have reacted and closed loopholes. These loop holes that could be exploited by anyone, not just GHCQ/NSA. They have been pushing and creating illegal malware, infecting anything from DELL FIRMWARE to client browsers, both intercepting hardware en-route or post setup.


    Even infecting Slashdot for the purposes of targeting people like us because we hold the keys to many users.
    Well, there you have me. Obviously I don't know these people as well as you do. All I said is that the people that you would reasonably consider to be best placed to assess the amount of damage that Snowden caused, say that he caused damage. Obviously, your ability to confidently dismiss their motives lets him off the hook somewhat.

    I can't help but feel that other traitors might have used much the same argument, however.

  10. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    This is a perennial cry of someone who is unable to present a good argument. I've seen it over and over again. Usually followed shortly by "I'm out"...

    State your argument, clearly, and people will respond. If your argument is flawed, people will pull it apart. That's a discussion. That's just how it happens on a forum.

    I have my arguments ripped apart all the time. I'm used to it. Its one of the reasons I'm so blunt.
    And here we go again.

    Already stated my argument, my points have been made clear. It's more like I am hitting nerves that people don't like. As I stated before people cried during the whole torrent and internet filtering - short time later it got forgotten and no one complains any more. If the Gov want to pick apart my internet history they will do so regardless. If they want to get a warrant to search that or my PC at home what can I do if they get one? Nothing.

    I can continue to raise up the issue that If you have nothing to hide. At the end of the day if we are talking about something illegal today that yesterday was legal after that it's the Gov can interpret something different. What's the result? the same.

    Sorry to say but I don't see a single part of my argument that was flawed, if I say I couldn't care less if the Gov monitor my internet access or not what's flawed about that. That's not arguing half lies, fact is half of me won't care at all. That's not your not place to pull apart, that's not your place to accuse of being flawed. That's not just my view that's my feeling behind it. My feelings isn't something that someone can question because its fact. The information I argued was very little because I wasn't arguing information. I am not arguing if the Gov should or should not do it.

    I am simply stating how I feel about it - sorry but don't see how that can be torn apart. If your view differs on that well, tough luck really because my view on it all and my feelings wont change. No one here has presented any information that has changed it except Tmd who seems to think more along the lines of my self but he seems to be arguing facts too not just his view.

  11. #69

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    And here we go again.

    Already stated my argument, my points have been made clear. It's more like I am hitting nerves that people don't like. As I stated before people cried during the whole torrent and internet filtering - short time later it got forgotten and no one complains any more. If the Gov want to pick apart my internet history they will do so regardless. If they want to get a warrant to search that or my PC at home what can I do if they get one? Nothing.
    You're confusing a lack of public articles with people still being angry that such things exist. I still dislike the government's filtering nonsense. I wrote letters, I spoke to my MP. My views were roundly ignored and replied to with "won't someone please think of the children". I'm still angry about a long list of laws that infringe on our liberties.

    I can continue to raise up the issue that If you have nothing to hide. At the end of the day if we are talking about something illegal today that yesterday was legal after that it's the Gov can interpret something different. What's the result? the same.
    I have nothing to hide, but that didn't stop a politically motivated prosecution against me with police lying about me and my friends, or with police following us around or stopping us every time we went anywhere in a car. It didn't stop the police placing bugs in our meeting place, or stop the police and council doing "sting" operations against us for holding information stalls in public. No laws broken, yet my life was turned upside down by them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    That's what I've said multiple times. The law says the police, councils, DEFRA, dept of education, etc... can access the information without a warrant. That's exactly what these laws, when put together, do.
    I agree, but I (personally) don't have a problem with the data retention. It seems a perfectly sensible thing to do. The fact is if this law is passed or not changes little other than the question of what data and how long. The problems appear to be in a law passed 14 years ago. Laws get updated, repealed, changed, all the time. Maybe it's that law that should be the focus of public ire.

    All the arguments I've read so far against data retention appear resolve around it's potential use/misuse. Maybe the law should be tightened it that regard? As you say it's petabytes of data. Even GCHQ have better things to do with their time than to fish through the amount of data that is generated each second.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DPrince View Post
    Well, there you have me. Obviously I don't know these people as well as you do. All I said is that the people that you would reasonably consider to be best placed to assess the amount of damage that Snowden caused, say that he caused damage. Obviously, your ability to confidently dismiss their motives lets him off the hook somewhat.
    I thought you were playing devils advocate?

    I've yet to see any tangible evidence for damage, aside from PR and talk, very little specifics.... maybe they have something to hide???? Notice that argument only goes one way?

  14. #72

    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    You can't complain that no-one is discussing your points properly when, by your own admission, you're not discussing any points, you are "simply stating how [you] feel about it". You're not engaging in the conversation - you've just loudly declared "I DON'T CARE!" and then got upset when the people who do care think that it's a rather short-sighted and shallow approach to take to what often devolves into abuse of power.

    You say no-one discusses the torrent filtering anymore, which is funny, as I was discussing the topic not half an hour ago with our head of curriculum IT in relation to all this. The appropriation of the CleanFeed system to block torrent sites is as fine an example of the slippery slope as I can ever remember seeing - no-one could complain about CleanFeed's original purpose, but within a decade it was being used to block sites without proof on the say so of vested interests with the money & influence to have their voices heard. It's one of the key reasons why I'm so against legislation like the current bill - because no matter how carefully it is presented and limited at the time, if it opens a door that has been closed before, something else will be along before too long to drive the door open.

    You seem to falsely equate privacy with secrecy, with the idea that people must have an ulterior motive for privacy, and can't seem to comprehend that it can be its own end and we can seek privacy for privacy's sake.

    And you know what? It's your opinion, and you are wholly entitled to keep it, as I am entitled to voice my opposition to such apathy. We're all entitled to be offended here. That's good. But don't complain that you're offended when you march into a thread of people who obviously care and start shouting about how you don't care and then get pulled apart by that first group. I'd have thought it a fairly obvious outcome. We were hardly going to say "you know what, you're right, not caring about the rules and laws that govern my existence is the right approach!", were we?

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  16. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    I agree, but I (personally) don't have a problem with the data retention. It seems a perfectly sensible thing to do. The fact is if this law is passed or not changes little other than the question of what data and how long. The problems appear to be in a law passed 14 years ago. Laws get updated, repealed, changed, all the time. Maybe it's that law that should be the focus of public ire.

    All the arguments I've read so far against data retention appear resolve around it's potential use/misuse. Maybe the law should be tightened it that regard? As you say it's petabytes of data. Even GCHQ have better things to do with their time than to fish through the amount of data that is generated each second.
    Its not just about access. I simply don't want people to be able to look at what I'm doing. Its my life, I have a right to enjoy it without people looking over my shoulder.

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    @SYNACK - I liked the article linked from that forum post, Why Privacy Matters Even if You Have 'Nothing to Hide' - The Chronicle Review - The Chronicle of Higher Education - lots of interesting theory there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Its not just about access. I simply don't want people to be able to look at what I'm doing. Its my life, I have a right to enjoy it without people looking over my shoulder.
    But that's the point - as you say petabytes. No one cares if you shop online at Tesco's on the third Friday of every month other than Tesco. And they probably have that information already from your club card. Just sitting here looking at my live filter logs scroll by is a great cure for insomnia. So there's an entry in a file on a hard drive in London somewhere that says IP 178.42.37.63 visited torrentbypass.com and 2:30am last Wednesday. Great, good luck to who ever finds it. I really do hope it's useful in combating illegal piracy, maybe 15 lines down there's an entry for CentOS download the proceeded it - doh!



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