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General Chat Thread, Seriously Apple! Enough! in General; Originally Posted by Brimstone Hidden costs, what rubbish I suppose you buy Windows computers then moan about the "hidden cost" ...
  1. #91

    abillybob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brimstone View Post
    Hidden costs, what rubbish

    I suppose you buy Windows computers then moan about the "hidden cost" of software applications to run on them do you?

    *ahem*
    Seriously Apple! Enough!-e4a11.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by X-13 View Post
    False equivalence.

    You buy a new windows computer and you can just whack it on the network. Network drives, remote management of software/users. No fuss.

    You buy an iPad and you can't. Not without paying for a MDM solution.


    Both iPads and Windows computers have paid and free software.
    I've just had light speed in to talk about their MDM solution not 5 minutes ago, its about £5 per device, thats the equivalent of a windows CAL albeit paid every year but its not really that much of an extra cost IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGardiner View Post
    I've just had light speed in to talk about their MDM solution not 5 minutes ago, its about £5 per device, thats the equivalent of a windows CAL albeit paid every year but its not really that much of an extra cost IMO.
    £5 x 200 devices is an extra £1000 annually seems enough for me to get annoyed about it. It wouldn't be so bad if you have 30 iPads though unlike my school.

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGardiner View Post
    I've just had light speed in to talk about their MDM solution not 5 minutes ago, its about £5 per device, thats the equivalent of a windows CAL albeit paid every year but its not really that much of an extra cost IMO.
    [I'm not a licencing expert] Isn't there also some sort of connection license you need as well, if you plan on connecting it to a windows network?

    I remember seeing something like that being brought up with Linux machines on a Windows network.

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    All of this comes down to expectations and planning.

    If your view of iPads is they "just work", you're going to be very disappointed when you try to deploy them in any significant number. But the same is true of Windows. If you buy 100 Windows desktops and put them into a completely fresh network with no domain controller or SCCM you're likewise going to struggle.

    There are a lot of problems with iPad management, but most of them can be resolved to some extent with a little planning and research.

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    I'm not just digging at apple for hidden costs, Google has a 15 quid fee per device too to be managed iirc. Just seems like everything you need to do involves some extra expense with apple - I've bought my mac mini to manage my iPads with profile manager, oh the server app is 15 quid etc...

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by caffrey View Post
    I'm not just digging at apple for hidden costs, Google has a 15 quid fee per device too to be managed iirc. Just seems like everything you need to do involves some extra expense with apple - I've bought my mac mini to manage my iPads with profile manager, oh the server app is 15 quid etc...
    its £15....

    you also don't require the server app, you can use plenty of other free cloud based MDM options. its all down to what you expect to get for the price you pay - hell you can even use configurator to "manage them" for free, it just ends up giving you a boatload of extra work. and then it comes down to is it cheaper to buy the mdm solution or pay you for the time it takes to manage them manually.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by edublogger View Post
    All of this comes down to expectations and planning.

    If your view of iPads is they "just work", you're going to be very disappointed when you try to deploy them in any significant number. But the same is true of Windows. If you buy 100 Windows desktops and put them into a completely fresh network with no domain controller or SCCM you're likewise going to struggle.

    There are a lot of problems with iPad management, but most of them can be resolved to some extent with a little planning and research.
    I don't think it is any of our views that they just work but it is the view of the people who push for and buy them, largely thanks to the amount or misinformation that gets fed about them. At least it seems to have worked its way through that managing pcs is a good idea, iPads, that whole half the investment thing is left out in favour of 'but its what plants crave'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seb1780 View Post
    Principle 7 of the Data Protection Act (my emphisis)

    "Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data."

    I doubt any court in the land will accept "it's down to the teacher" as a defence.

    Thats why you invest in a decent MDM solution that can wipe the device remotely, if you want to control app data then you invest in an Enterprise level MDM and policies to control this as well, there are plenty of solutions to do this

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Hmm, but you don't need to buy SCCM to install an application on a couple of computers without touching them and computers at least have the assumption that some infrastructure may be required.

    iPads 'just work' which is complete rubbish and because of that all these costs are not put forward at all to begin with. Also you expect a tool to be able to do its job at least a little, Apples MDM is junk and can barely make a dent in the configurability anyway even if it does work that one day or so.

    You also don't need to go and buy a bunch of very specific hardware then layer on more and more management just to get the basics. You get Windows Server and with AD it manages Windows clients, if it does not do something you want it to you can script it. Apple is different, like a Porche dealer, every little thing is extra and if your really lucky they will charge you double for a version with all the features stripped out that's 'cooler'.
    "Apples MDM is Junk"
    I totally agree with you but what do you expect from an app that costs £13.00 in the UK?

    I've never said on here that "iPads just work"

    There are too many schools buying iPads without thought or planning involved (and involving IT admins from the start) and then buying them from "so called" iPad resellers that know absolutely nothing about iOS and have no credentials when it comes to explaining about the infrastructure required to properly manage and deploy them.

    If you want a MDM solution that you would be more familiar with then don't look for some thing that has to run on Mac OS, both of these below are Enterprise level solutions and "just work" I'm sure it's likely you may have looked at either of these already...

    Mobile device management | Microsoft
    Enterprise Mobility Management | Devices | Workspace | Apps | Content | Email | Browsing | AirWatch

  11. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Nope, we had a proper domain .schXXX I believe.

    It wasn't the serving of accounts that was the slow bit - it was the responsiveness of the actual hardware itself. Copying a file from one disk to the other would give speeds of less than 30Mbps, which is ridiculous. Opening the Server.app was slow for example.
    Sound like you had a dying hard drive. They don't go that slow.

  12. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by caffrey View Post
    Here's an example of why I find iPads trying
    Year 7s needed an app for a lesson, okay it should've been requested earlier to give us more time - but you would think it would be as simple as downloading the (free) app and pushing it out to those devices *except* they are under 13 and don't have itunes accounts, so they have to bring them individually to us for apps to be installed - this caused disruption to the lesson. Okay with better planning this could've been avoided but it's so frustrating.
    This example only demonstrates the lack of preparedness and organisation of the teacher and nothing more.

    If a teacher came to me just before or during a lesson wanting me to push out a bit of software for ANY device whether it be a PC, Mac, iPad, Android tablet, or anything else I would tell them to go to Plan B - because it wouldn't be happening, not ever. Do it once, even if it is possible, and you've just created a rod for your back. Even if you could, it wouldn't be a good idea because if its a new bit of software you (1) should really be testing it first; and, (2) should be considering the impact on your network of a bunch of devices downloading software all at once.

  13. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by edublogger View Post
    A lot of my frustration with iPads comes from the fact that most of this hassle exists purely to retain Apple's control over the eco-system. There's no reason I shouldn't be able to pull down a packaged app and distribute it in any way I see fit. All of the Apple Configurator management is bolted on, and was clearly not built into the OS from the ground up, and MDM is so restrictive to the MDM provider as to be barely usable by the admin.
    You should take the leap to Android then. Enjoy the malware...

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by rad View Post
    I got this set up using the Apple configurator and have locked them down to Safari only. Why you say, because there is no MDM solution that allows you to configure an iPad how you want. You cant stop them "hot Spotting" to their own phones, you cant lock down everything how you can in a windows environment.
    iBoss MDM (MobilEther) can lock down iPads to a great extent. Even removing the App Store, heavily restricting what can be installed, and forcing web filtering on the iPad no matter what network a student tries to connect it to (including their phone) try as they might.

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Hmm, but you don't need to buy SCCM to install an application on a couple of computers without touching them and computers at least have the assumption that some infrastructure may be required.
    You don't need to buy an MDM solution to install a couple of apps on an iPad without "touching" them. You just use Configurator. "But wait, that means I have to buy a Mac" you say. OK, so how do you manage the PC without a server? Because without a server, you are still at best using Remote Desktop and then "touching" the computer from afar. Same same.

    iPads 'just work' which is complete rubbish and because of that all these costs are not put forward at all to begin with. Also you expect a tool to be able to do its job at least a little, Apples MDM is junk and can barely make a dent in the configurability anyway even if it does work that one day or so.
    For the consumer, who is the largest purchaser of computers by far - iPads do just work. Nothing "just works" on a mass deployment scale without considerable work on the backend. Even Chromebooks require an existing Google Apps account and a reasonable amount of setup to get everything just right.

    You also don't need to go and buy a bunch of very specific hardware then layer on more and more management just to get the basics. You get Windows Server and with AD it manages Windows clients, if it does not do something you want it to you can script it. Apple is different, like a Porche dealer, every little thing is extra and if your really lucky they will charge you double for a version with all the features stripped out that's 'cooler'.
    So, let's see you just "get" (i.e. buy) a Windows server (but no special hardware required...oops wait) and licensing including CALs (don't forget those), spend a considerable amount of time configuring it, setting up DNS, DHCP, AD, GPOs, WDS, etc. Test, test, test. Tweak this, tweak that. Oh, wait you've never setup a Windows AD server before - pay someone to do it (so you don't stuff it up). Test, test, test. Tweak this, tweak that. If it doesn't do something you want it to, you can script it (except for Windows RT, which requires an MDM type solution...er em.)

    Yep, just works out of the box.

    Or, you just "get" (i.e. buy) a Mac to function as a server, pay $20 for Server.app and nothing for CALs. Spend a considerable amount of time configuring it, setting up DNS, DHCP, OD, Profile Manager, DeployStudio, etc. Test, test, test. Tweak this, tweak that. Oh wait you've never setup a Mac server before - pay someone to do it (so you don't stuff it up). Test, test, test. Tweak this, tweak that. If it doesn't do something you want it to, you can script it (for Macs not iPads)

    So, in the real world management of all devices on a mass scale takes some actual hardware and considerable effort. Imagine that. Those CALs can cost a pretty penny for the Windows server too.
    Last edited by seawolf; 6th June 2014 at 05:32 AM.

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