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General Chat Thread, Seriously Apple! Enough! in General; Originally Posted by Tesla @ zag My argument with that way of "managing" them is, if the teachers are left ...
  1. #31
    zag
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post
    @zag My argument with that way of "managing" them is, if the teachers are left on their own to work an iPad, there is a huge loss of control over them, and no way to know who's putting what apps on what ipad etc, and could potentially blow huge holes in the budget. ie a teacher gets moved to a different year etc, or gets given a previous ipads with apps not to their personal taste, and then have to downlaod / buy more apps....
    I still don't really understand this attitude. Why don't you trust the teachers with an iPad?

    Most teachers have them here and they just use it as they wish. We have no control over apps or purchases and to be honest I have no need to. That's the teachers responsibility.

    If they want to buy apps, they can request iTunes gift cards from their department budgets.

    So far its worked really well. I guess the real question is will it work if we ever roll out iPads 1:1 to students.

  2. Thanks to zag from:

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    We have no control over apps or purchases and to be honest I have no need to.
    For us it is not controlling the apps that is the issue, it is controlling the data those apps store. Some apps will hold sensitive information with nothing more than the owners PIN code preventing access (and that's for the ones that use a PIN code!)

    Of course, this applies to all devices, not just iPads.
    Last edited by Seb1780; 4th June 2014 at 10:02 AM. Reason: Added the generic concern

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    On this point, my experience is that it is normal. I bought an i7 Mac Mini "Server" in 2012 and it absolutely crawled! Not to mention the fact they call it a server...
    I have to step in and back this up we have an i7 Mac Mini here with server on it. After around a yeah of use the thing was unusable, no reason for it from what I or the Apple Technician could see even a hardware scan didn't bring up any problems. I took the plunge this year and installed a fresh version of Mavericks onto it and now it works like a charm ultra fast! Don't really know what happened before but then again it wasn't me that put it in in the first place it was another technician, who from my experience wasn't the best at his job.

    iPads can be tire-some especially when messing about with MDM solutions I tried every single one Profile Manager, Meraki, Lightspeed everything had it's problems somewhere or another. The only viable way I can manage them is Apple Configurator which throws paddys sometimes but usually works quite well! I have told the head teacher not to buy anymore iPads and soon when iPad 2's "are no more" we will look into Android tablets or Windows Tablets (this is what I'll push for) just because it's easier to implement something into a network which is already setup and ready to go. I'm just waiting

    Apart from a few niggles and a cry here or there over Apple devices I like to think I have them setup quite well. I don't like them and personally think your stupid to buy an Apple device for home use when you look at pricing and hardware specs, but everyone is different! At the end of the day the children like them and it brings parents in as they like we are in a brand new building with loads of Shiny Apple Stuff, it's the sad truth but since having all this in our amount of children per year has sky rocketed!

  5. #34

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    I still don't really understand this attitude. Why don't you trust the teachers with an iPad?
    Years of experience of teachers using laptops?

    Most teachers have them here and they just use it as they wish. We have no control over apps or purchases and to be honest I have no need to. That's the teachers responsibility.
    If they have no oversight watching out for what they're buying, then how can you as a school be sure you're getting value for money - which is a legal requirement.

    If they want to buy apps, they can request iTunes gift cards from their department budgets.
    Depends if your school works like that...

  6. Thanks to localzuk from:

    featured_spectre (6th June 2014)

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    I still don't really understand this attitude. Why don't you trust the teachers with an iPad?

    Most teachers have them here and they just use it as they wish. We have no control over apps or purchases and to be honest I have no need to. That's the teachers responsibility.

    If they want to buy apps, they can request iTunes gift cards from their department budgets.

    So far its worked really well. I guess the real question is will it work if we ever roll out iPads 1:1 to students.
    ...probably because i know the teachers that work here...(not BTRD so not delving into it)

    what attitude, the one where i'm not wanting the school to spend more money on ipads etc than it needs/should do? I'm not saying the teachers are at fault for it, i'm saying that, without some form of control over apps etc, a teachers ipad for their class this year, could be next to useless for the next year, and if a teacher was gtiven another teachers ipad, for whatever reason, it may be completely unsuitable to that teachers.

    We are trying to set up a system where by we put certain apps on an ipad, the ICT co-ordinator has requested these, and they have all been linked to the curriculum by some way or another. this means from one year to the next, they will be suitable for whoever uses them, reducing a possible substantial cost for a school that doesn't have much money (yet buys 30 odd ipads....)
    Last edited by Tesla; 4th June 2014 at 10:11 AM.

  8. #36
    zag
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seb1780 View Post
    For us it is not controlling the apps that is the issue, it is controlling the data those apps store. Some apps will hold sensitive information with nothing more than the owners PIN code preventing access (and that's for the ones that use a PIN code!)

    Of course, this applies to all devices, not just iPads.
    Isn't that down to the teacher?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    Isn't that down to the teacher?
    Until they point the finger at the technician and you get asked why didn't you lock it down when there are IT tools available for such a thing.
    Last edited by Tesla; 4th June 2014 at 10:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    Isn't that down to the teacher?
    Principle 7 of the Data Protection Act (my emphisis)

    "Appropriate technical and organisational measures shall be taken against unauthorised or unlawful processing of personal data and against accidental loss or destruction of, or damage to, personal data."

    I doubt any court in the land will accept "it's down to the teacher" as a defence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by free780 View Post
    I take it people are not using a proxy server with the ipads. Now that is fun.
    I will assume sarcasm or insanity from this comment. Trust me, using proxies with iPads is akin to having your eyeballs scrapped with a rusty spoon. It would be fine if the people at Apple hadn't arbitrarily decided that connecting to WiFi should include a 'call home' feature that accesses a 'validation' URL. If the iPad can't get to this (everchanging) URL it won't connect to WiFi which is a pain for captive portal proxy auth and requires big fat filtering holes to be made. Really Apple? Why not just go the whole hog and lock down the firmware to only connect to Apple branded WiFi access points and only access Apple approved websites?
    Last edited by AMLightfoot; 4th June 2014 at 10:23 AM.

  12. 2 Thanks to AMLightfoot:

    Edu-IT (4th June 2014), zag (4th June 2014)

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    Quote Originally Posted by AMLightfoot View Post
    Really Apple? Why not just go the whole hog and lock down the firmware to only connect to Apple branded WiFi access points and only access Apple approved websites?
    I chuckled at that, that is something sounding typical of Apple. "We have no malware / viruses; you cant visit anywhere to get them! - Computers, Re-Invented"

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    @SYNACK, I should also point out to you it won't matter if you put this in BTRD category or not. When speaking to Apple they asked me how they could help schools in the UK as I wasn't the first to call up and complain about the management of devices. First thing I did was forward the EduGeek websites to them with links on different Apple related horrors we face day to day. I explained there are thousands of ICT Technicians that use the site everyday from Schools as a general community, a ranting place or just to get some help from others, I explained it would be a good idea to have a sponsor technician that had the ability to help in technical tasks on here and help the schools technicians manage them better rather than having to call their customer support team, who half the time are clueless.

    There response: This is a forum where people go when they have problems. You are only seeing so many bad comments from people because this is a place to go to when issues arise. We will not be participating on this forum and we believe this website make up a small number of the technicians in the UK. Majority of the schools do well with Apple devices and the iPad is a brilliant educational tool, this represents a small minority of people that are having issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    I don't see the issue here really.
    Quite simple - managing them really. Like any device in IT that gets used by Staff/Students or general users some places prefer to lock them down. They should have the option to do so and it should be simple, after all M$ likes to do things backwards these other companies/products that are supposed to be "better" should be making life easier for the IT Crew. That quotation isn't really aimed at you FYI

    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    iPads are designed for individual users.
    Completely agree which is why we don't manage our Android Tablets, which is also why I still am very reserved about Mobile devices in Schools. There is a reason IT spends months locking down PCs, networks and servers. It isn't always about protecting the device but protecting the user and allowing the IT dept to easily deploy Apps, favourites, homes pages, Pre-Configured Apps (we are looking at Toshiba E-Studio Printing App)

    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    It looks to me like you are trying to apply Microsoft shared software installation work practices to a software ecosystem that is designed for individual users to manage their devices not the Network team.

    We've used iPads for teachers here and don't touch them after getting them on the wireless. Seems to work really well so far.

    If I ever rolled them out to students it would be on a 1:1 basis starting with certain year or class groups. They would then be responsible for their own device software app installs.
    Changing your thinking approach makes little difference compared to M$ or non M$ Tablets, we do a Scheme for Year 7 and heading towards Tablets. The only real thinking approach is managed or not to be managed (that is the question).

    We don't managing them simply because of the work load and system changes needed. At the moment our HotSpot which is used by any mobile device users (including our Year7, 8, 9 and P16 netbooks) is completely cut off from everything minus the Internet. I can completely understand why some may go down the route of managing.

    So far the Staff who have been using Tablets (around 20 so far for the last month) have too had little issues. If we managed them we certainly would be making their lives easier but it will be a lot of work to get going.
    I have a strong feeling in 8 months time I will be wishing we managed our New Year 7 Tablets. What Tesla is stating is very good points in managing them.

    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    There response: This is a forum where people go when they have problems. You are only seeing so many bad comments from people because this is a place to go to when issues arise. We will not be participating on this forum and we believe this website make up a small number of the technicians in the UK. Majority of the schools do well with Apple devices and the iPad is a brilliant educational tool, this represents a small minority of people that are having issues.
    Sad but true, only been on the phone once with Apple and never want to again. Their product like anything else out there will work but will require a lot of work. I thought M$ and Google would react like that but actually were polite (at least last time I spoke to M$ many a year ago).

    I think that's where Apple falls short, the fans will claim its better than anything else out there and why would you look at the competition. Similar attitude M$ had a long time ago but with all the competition out there with Tablets its a buyers market. You really can choose a product best suited to you and you don't need to go Apple for the fan fest or M$ because your used to it. I am still waiting for a project to go ahead so I can start looking at Chrome Books. So my CV has M$, Apple, Android and Google Chrome experience
    Last edited by mthomas08; 4th June 2014 at 11:01 AM.

  16. Thanks to mthomas08 from:

    zag (4th June 2014)

  17. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    There response: This is a forum where people go when they have problems. You are only seeing so many bad comments from people because this is a place to go to when issues arise. We will not be participating on this forum and we believe this website make up a small number of the technicians in the UK. Majority of the schools do well with Apple devices and the iPad is a brilliant educational tool, this represents a small minority of people that are having issues.
    Typical 'Genius bar' response: There are no problems with Apple products therefore the problem must be you. End of story.

    They're wrong though. When iOS7 came out with the 'call home validation' on WiFi connections it was a huge headache and it wasn't just individuals and schools logging tickets. We contacted Apple about the problem and their response was akin to a shrug of the shoulders and 'because security' excuse.

    The upshot is that Apple are of the opinion that whatever they decide must be right and if it causes problems for people in using the devices in the way they advertise and sell them to be used then the problem is not with Apple but with all the other vendors. All the web filtering companies, all the WiFi access point and hotspot vendors, all the proxies.

    One can only hope that eventually, what with the range of tablets on offer now, that people will stop seeing the shiny shiny Apple fondleslab as their first choice and will start looking at other devices. I'm interested to see how Samsung do with their new Tizen OS platform and I'm certain it won't be long before some enterprising Linux/Android groupie branches the Android OS into an enterprise specific configuration with device management software. There is certainly the market for it.

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    At all my Primary schools we supply partially managed Android tablets but the apps are chosen by the staff or learnpads which can very easily deploy apps, software or complete desktops. I have been getting really good feedback about the learnpads but not sure if they would be any good for KS3+

  19. #45
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    This has been a really interesting read. From a supplier's angle, the message we're getting from our schools is still predominantly "We want iPads!" though Android and Windows tablet requests are becoming more frequent.

    Is this continued Apple push coming from above, then? From head teachers etc. being talked into thinking that iPads specifically are the way forward?



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