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General Chat Thread, Teacher stabbed to death at school in Leeds in General; Originally Posted by pcstru Well, when I don't know something, I'm ignorant of it. The word seems entirely appropriate to ...
  1. #106

    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Well, when I don't know something, I'm ignorant of it. The word seems entirely appropriate to describe a situation of not knowing - regardless of the reason for that. It isn't an insult, nor intended as one. There is a lot of fear of ignorance and people have strong motivations to have an opinion without any evidence. Not to be insulting (again!) but IMO the younger you are the more you will be afflicted by that. Oscar Wild summed it up well : "I'm not young enough to know everything". I think age brings more willingness to recognise when we don't know, perhaps that's because experience teaches that recognising when you don't know something is pretty useful knowledge. Perhaps you just become more comfortable with the knowledge of not knowing.

    I'm not really commenting on the issue of the "youth of today". I can't think how to even reasonably frame the question in an objective way. (My own experiences when young would suggest we were no better - but that is just more anecdote). I was commenting on the dismissal of evidence before anyone had even bothered to bring any. That just strikes me as risible.
    OK, just a difference of opinion then, when I'm called ignorant I take it as an insult as it's often banded about as one, but fair enough you meant it in the literal sense.

    It's always going to be a difficult argument to make this one, as those old enough to make a comparison often have their opinion tainted by nostalgia, so those too young to remember can't really find a reliable source of information to draw comparison from.

    It's interesting that @casey has pointed out that the Telegraph have been publishing 100 year old articles and that the news is pretty much the same - that may be as close to "proof" as we can get that things are no worse now than they've ever been.

    If that is the case though, then again I have to agree with @casey - rather than worrying that things are getting worse, we should be worried that they haven't gotten any better...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    I wasn't born until '88, I don't think it's fair to call me ignorant because I didn't experience life before I was born... I know the anecdotal evidence says things were better back then but I don't put much weight in anecdotal evidence.
    I didn't read that as you being called ignorant at all. I think it was more of a general comment that most people remember how the world was for them in earlier times rather than how it seemed as a whole. Generally awareness and appreciation of the world outside of your own direct experience is something that increases with age.
    @abillybob - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here or for what purpose. Figures are just a numerical representation of facts which facilitate easier comparisons so I don't understand your distinction between the two. The number and nature of factors which contribute to the combined collective behaviour of millions of people are so complex that it is extremely difficult to separate out where the cause of any observed or perceived effect lies. Certainly changes in society will have effects, usually some will be positive and some negative but trying to work out what these are is no trivial matter and while it is easy for anybody to have their own guess at what the problems and solutions are, without evidence to back it up your guess is no more valid than anyone elses...

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    Sorry Galway but did you read any of the comments above?

    You sound like Fraser from Dad's Army "We're alllll doooooooomed!"

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    Personally I think society was more violent 30-40 years ago. You only have to look at footage from the terraces to see that thousands of young men would be out rucking every week. My dad also backs up the theory that going back 30-50 years most pubs were generally pretty rough places to be. Was a case of fighting your way in and fighting your way out in some areas. Mugging was not so popular back then because people simply didn't have anything worth mugging from.

    However what I would say is that the escalation of the Summer riots in 2011 came as no surprise to me. Whilst someone has mentioned that the Police may now be more of a para-military arm of the government, they were also shown up as lacking control of the streets during this period. Whatever the reasons for people feeling the need to riot, for the first two nights the Police failed to have any control over what was a motley collection of pseudo-gangsters and bored schoolkids. Whether you point your finger at the guys on the ground or their superiors is anyone's guess.

  5. #110

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superatticman View Post
    Personally I think society was more violent 30-40 years ago.
    We know that it was from the health service statistics and from policing stats (which, true, you have to take with a pinch of salt) all around the world. There is a reason for it too, the removal of lead from petrol. How Lead Caused America's Violent Crime Epidemic - Forbes

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    Of course I read them, just because I didn't address each and everyone does not change a thing.

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    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    Of course I read them, just because I didn't address each and everyone does not change a thing.
    You've also avoided making a counter argument, haven't attempted to display any reasoning behind your objections nor even pointed out who or what exactly you're objecting to... you may as well be shouting in to an empty room!

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    We know that it was from the health service statistics and from policing stats (which, true, you have to take with a pinch of salt) all around the world. There is a reason for it too, the removal of lead from petrol. How Lead Caused America's Violent Crime Epidemic - Forbes
    Not sure if anyone has seen the new 'Cosmos' series, but there was an excellent article on how they discovered the very fact that lead poisoning was even in existence. The original task was to find out how old the Earth is. That they discovered. But another spin off of this was that they also discovered the fact that the levels of lead in the environment were extremely high.

    As for statistics, when theres politics involved, can they ever be trusted? The Beeching report was the most obvious example of how to fabricate figures to suit your agenda. Ensure that main line trains from London no longer connect with the branch line services that you want closed. And lets ensure that monitoring is done during the middle of the day and not during the peak hours. The nett result? Figures that show considerably less passenger usage than if you had been totally impartial.

  9. #114
    Galway's Avatar
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    Where to start? At the moment im simply disagreeing with the happy clappers who think everything is fine. If you want me to spell it out then there is no point, as its clearly missed already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    It's interesting that @casey has pointed out that the Telegraph have been publishing 100 year old articles and that the news is pretty much the same - that may be as close to "proof" as we can get that things are no worse now than they've ever been.
    That's about the sense I have of it - very little has changed. Australia didn't get a population in the younger white demographic from well behaved kids saying please and thank you. If someone wants to say things are worse, then they need to present the evidence for their claim. The area seems to be one where perceptions are out of kilter with the evidence. Perhaps there is some natural cognitive bias going on.
    If that is the case though, then again I have to agree with @casey - rather than worrying that things are getting worse, we should be worried that they haven't gotten any better...
    Or perhaps that would be like worrying that the number of legs children have hasn't grown (basically it is what it is) ?

  11. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    Where to start? At the moment im simply disagreeing with the happy clappers who think everything is fine. If you want me to spell it out then there is no point, as its clearly missed already.
    Oh that old chestnut, "of course I get it but why should I explain it to you?"

    A debate only works if both sides are willing to make their point, otherwise there really is no point.

    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Or perhaps that would be like worrying that the number of legs children have hasn't grown (basically it is what it is) ?
    True, although I would like to believe that as humanity progresses our aptitude for violence and hatred would decrease... then again, we are just a collection of cells clinging to a rock being hurtled through space at thousands of miles per hour!

  12. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    then again, we are just a collection of cells clinging to a rock being hurtled through space at thousands of miles per hour!
    Because Science.

  13. #118


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    im not sure you ever can compare one "age" with another (at least not since the industrial revolution ish). Just look at things we take for granted that when i was a kid just werent around (not an exhaustive list.
    24 hour news (which imo rewads quick ill researches fluff pieces over actual journalism and fact checking)
    internet (24/7 access to pretty much any info you could ever want and lots you dont though i suspect it was easier to do some things pre internet and years ago like homemade explosives as there will of been people who came back from the war and tought skills like this to their kids as blowing up a tree stump is fun)
    being connected to a phone 24/7 again growing up i rarely used the phone if i wanted to find out what someone was doing i went and found them
    100's of tv chanels/netflix (you can probably just sit infront of the tv and find something "worth watching" all day if you want without too much trouble so why bother doing anything)

    As life moves on so quickly its hard to reestablish a baseline norm even from one generation to the next what we consider a basic tool would of been magic to our grandparents. As others have said back far enough and sons did the same job as their fathers pretty much in the same village so you propably couldnt avoid knowing peoples names if you wanted to because you diddnt travel and would be constantly running into them

  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    Where to start? At the moment im simply disagreeing with the happy clappers who think everything is fine. If you want me to spell it out then there is no point, as its clearly missed already.
    I don't think anyone is saying that things are fine are they? Just that they may not be as bad, or as different, as some people are saying

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying that things are fine are they? Just that they may not be as bad, or as different, as some people are saying
    Exactly, no one has said we are living in a utopia, just that it's not as bad as some think.

    People have been saying things are going all to hell for millenia but we still haven't arrived there yet!

    As another well known witch says "I Aten't Dead" yet.



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