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General Chat Thread, Cloning.. What are your thoughts? in General; Ha. " However it would put a crimp in the retail sales of a 'your favourite actress or actor' clones ...
  1. #31
    fairm010's Avatar
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    Ha. " However it would put a crimp in the retail sales of a 'your favourite actress or actor' clones for 'personal use'." The things that just flew through my mind! :P

  2. #32


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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    I am watching this tonight.

    Try Alles, was wir geben mussten (2010) - IMDb instead, or as well. Just a tad more realistic and more challenging because of that.

    Edit: Don't know why it inserted the title in German. British film, 'Never Let Me Go' from the novel by Kazuo Ishiguro, who, as I'm sure we all know, wrote the excellent 'Remains of The Day'.
    Last edited by Earthling; 10th April 2014 at 03:08 PM.

  3. #33

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Repli-Kate (2002) - IMDb
    Alien - Die Wiedergeburt (1997) - IMDb

    for yet more played out but relevant perspective on the topic form more sides

    Moon (2009) - IMDb
    or the remake
    Oblivion (2013) - IMDb

    Edit: obviously the edugeek lookup server is somewhere in Germany as the imdb titles are not always the English ones... All of these - well short of oblivion are decent movies though.
    Last edited by SYNACK; 10th April 2014 at 03:10 PM.

  4. #34
    foofighterjim's Avatar
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    Not really sure how I feel about it but re cloning people. Don't we already have a global population problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by foofighterjim View Post
    Not really sure how I feel about it but re cloning people. Don't we already have a global population problem?
    This is where the other side of the ethics comes in, do you consider the person as a sum of their memories or their physical form, it is this measuring stick that is in contention I think. If it is just the genetic diversity of their form in question then you can just sample them and 'fix' the problem with a few well placed tactical devices - not that I am suggesting this at all jus pushing out the moral implications - if it is a combination of the two then things get more complicated.

    Besides since when has any of the world done anything about the population issue other than China who took drastic steps. Morality is an interesting an malleable line depending on your view point and culture. It all depends on your value system and what you hold above all else, current life, prolonged life, a future for humanity or a harmonious balance with nature. You need to make up your mind 'what you want' and what you are willing to do to get that before you know 'who you are' Babylon 5 (TV Series 1994

    - required reference since we are leaning towards morality using movies and TV as a guide.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by abillybob View Post
    Point being if you clone something your just making it the same though the mind won't be the same. So if you clone a 34 year old man with vast knowledge of Science the clone won't have that it would be a fully formed man but with all the characteristics of a baby as it hasn't learnt yet surely?
    This is somewhat correct I think. My understanding is that we all differ genetically at conception and have genetic characteristics which will shape our capacity to develop in different ways. To what extent we develop these capacities is affected through the experiences we have throughout our lives (practising a skill, how much we sleep, injury, socialising). A clone of Einstein therefore would share all the genetic traits of the original Einstein and so theoretically would be capable of being just as scientifically brilliant (although this would probably not be true or most people) but experience may or may not (but probably would) mean that the clone developed in a very different way. Would still make for a fascinating (but highly unethical) experiment though...

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    Ghostgame's Avatar
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    I hope this does not derail the thread but as a Christian I find the idea of cloning unacceptable.
    Why?
    Because according to the Bible (specifically Genesis), God designed us to procreate via a man and a woman.
    Anything that interferes or tries to replace that God given design (so therefore must be perfect) is asking for trouble.
    Please note, this is MY view.

  8. #38

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spadam View Post
    affected through the experiences we have throughout our lives (practising a skill, how much we sleep, injury, socialising). A clone of Einstein therefore would share all the genetic traits of the original Einstein and so theoretically would be capable of being just as scientifically brilliant (although this would probably not be true or most people) but experience may or may not (but probably would) mean that the clone developed in a very different way. Would still make for a fascinating (but highly unethical) experiment though...
    Diet, stimulus, culture...

    They have done similar more ethical experiments on identical twins that were adopted out at birth and have recorded differenced in development to differing extents, it is not always the genes, sometimes it is being in the right place at the right time.

  9. #39

    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostgame View Post
    I hope this does not derail the thread but as a Christian I find the idea of cloning unacceptable.
    Why?
    Because according to the Bible (specifically Genesis), God designed us to procreate via a man and a woman.
    Anything that interferes or tries to replace that God given design (so therefore must be perfect) is asking for trouble.
    Please note, this is MY view.
    I'll try avoid descending in to an argument on religion as the thread is doomed from that point on but I will ask this:

    As you rightfully state, that is your view. If you and others like you disagree with cloning, does that mean that those of us who don't have a problem with it (at least not to the extent of "it should not be done, end of.") be deprived of the various potential medical benefits it could eventually lead to?

  10. #40

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostgame View Post
    I hope this does not derail the thread but as a Christian I find the idea of cloning unacceptable.
    Why?
    Because according to the Bible (specifically Genesis), God designed us to procreate via a man and a woman.
    Anything that interferes or tries to replace that God given design (so therefore must be perfect) is asking for trouble.
    Please note, this is MY view.
    Here is the kicker though, if God created us he also gave us the ability to learn and create so in this we are just using the gifts that he/she/it gave use and running with them, surely this is what a creator would want otherwise she/he/it would not have given us the ability unless it/he/she is a mean entity just waiting for us to fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Diet, stimulus, culture...
    They have done similar more ethical experiments on identical twins that were adopted out at birth and have recorded differenced in development to differing extents, it is not always the genes, sometimes it is being in the right place at the right time.
    I would sum it up by saying it is never just the genes or just the environment. The genes are the starting point only - Everything else is experience.

    To take it a step further and into the realms of theory - If it were possible to develop 2 identical clones of a person and for them to live their lives separately in identical environments where every experience was identical for each of them down to the tiniest detail, would they lead identical lives?

    I would guess that they would as why would they not - which implies that we really have no voluntary control over our behaviour, it is all determined by our experience

  12. #42
    Ghostgame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    I'll try avoid descending in to an argument on religion as the thread is doomed from that point on but I will ask this:

    As you rightfully state, that is your view. If you and others like you disagree with cloning, does that mean that those of us who don't have a problem with it (at least not to the extent of "it should not be done, end of.") be deprived of the various potential medical benefits it could eventually lead to?
    The only person who would be deprived of the various potential medical benefits would be me.
    I can't speak for anyone else as they are their own person. Its up to the individual person.

  13. #43

    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostgame View Post
    The only person who would be deprived of the various potential medical benefits would be me.
    I can't speak for anyone else as they are their own person. Its up to the individual person.
    I wish all religious folk were as rational!

    OK, next question (I don't mean to pick on you!): if, through cloning, a cure for all cancer was found and then you or a loved one became ill, would you accept the treatment or deny it on religious grounds, knowing the alternative was death?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Here is the kicker though, if God created us he also gave us the ability to learn and create so in this we are just using the gifts that he/she/it gave use and running with them, surely this is what a creator would want otherwise she/he/it would not have given us the ability unless it/he/she is a mean entity just waiting for us to fail.
    We are given that gift but we have free will as well.
    We have the choice whether or not to obey what he says.
    God is not waiting for us to fail, God is allowing us to exercise our free will.

  15. #45

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostgame View Post
    We are given that gift but we have free will as well.
    We have the choice whether or not to obey what he says.
    God is not waiting for us to fail, God is allowing us to exercise our free will.
    If that kind of thinking persisted throughout time we would still be an agrarian culture who drowned witches at the stake and died off at the first sign of infection. All sorts of stuff has been discovered that was banned or outlawed by the church under the auspices of the bible. Your average doctor would be killed about 100 times a week for prescribing antibiotics, we would never have got aeroplanes as god did not give us wings and we would still think the earth was the centre of the universe. Religion is malleable eventually to survive the ever present and ever successful challenges to it.

    I just looked up the supposed bible quote of 'God helps those who helps themselves' which seems plausible and reasonable however I discovered that it is not in the bible at all, the closest reference is in the Quran God helps those who help themselves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    turns out the closest is the opposite which is basically sit in a cave and wait to die or for Christ to be reborn, whichever happens first:
    Jer 17:5 (NIV) This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD."
    Prov 28:26 (NIV) He who trusts in himself is a fool...
    Acts 17:11 Phantom Verse: "God helps those who help themselves?"

    Eep, you are free to believe whatever you want but I for one will not be subscribing to learned helplessness, enough of the teachers at my schools already do that - at least with computers.

    Not meaning to be rude or targeting you at all but I do have strong personal opinions that conflict with that kind of view for my own personal beliefs.
    Last edited by SYNACK; 10th April 2014 at 04:35 PM.

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