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General Chat Thread, Strike Day in General; Originally Posted by StevieM As can technicians move into private sector teching. Thing is though, a lot do and because ...
  1. #61
    mthomas08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StevieM View Post
    As can technicians move into private sector teching.
    Thing is though, a lot do and because they do some Schools struggle for years to pick up the mess left behind or they employ some one who is fresh out of College and has some good skills but may lack the overall skills/experience needed.

    As an Technician you can deal with the kind of work ranging from PC/Laptop support to networking, servers and budget planning.

    If things fall apart the School wont take responsibility they will simply look at the IT Staff and blame them. Where as with Teachers they tend to go out of their way to improve the Teachers ability or give TA support and even College Teams support. Where as the IT Staff will be pretty much expected to "Shut up and get it fixed".

    At the end of the day it doesn't fix the IT System and for Schools like us that rely heavily on IT the kids education is suffering for it. Luckily enough the Head here is seriously willing to listen and at every meeting/month passes I feel like we are getting some where. Yet as discussed in other posts, Union help barely exists for Support Staff but that's a whole different ball game.

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    As I said before, that's down to individual school management and it can apply to teachers as well as support staff. I really had a hard time from my head when I was a teacher. There is only a certain amount of being told how useless you are before you start to believe it, so I can empathise with those who are downtrodden in their schools.

    Back to the topic of striking and unions, if you're not in a union already, @mthomas08, I seriously suggest you start looking into it. Voice, Unison, Unite, GMB and others all cater for support staff in education. If you don't agree with striking, then Voice is the obvious choice. PM me if you'd like more details.

    Now I really need to get on with my work.

  3. #63

    TechMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    At the end of the day, if teachers don't like their pay and conditions, then they can move into private sector teaching.
    Ha, don't believe that it is all rosy there!!

  4. #64

    nephilim's Avatar
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    Teachers complaining about Pay - uhh, sure! Lets go with this. I taught for a year, I taught IT because the school couldn't find anyone with any knowledge of the subject matter to fill the gap when the DH left, so I was asked to do it (and given the Pro Rata rate for an NQT wage for the hours I taught, not the hours put into the work)...The NQT wage was higher than what I was on at the time. In this time, I taught IT, not a tough subject, but did require a some prep (averaging 1 hour for each year group per week), some marking of work as I would set homework (around 2 hours per year group). so I was putting in 12 hours a week plus 8 hours of lesson time a week. I was doing this, ON TOP of the NM work with little to no thanks by anyone.

    Now, NQTs get 22k (rounded to nearest 1k). Within 5 years, they get 31k. No other job, anywhere on the market, offers this sort of salary progression. I couldn't find a single one that was willing to offer you a boost of nearly 10% per year for the first 5 years. Not even bankers get that sort of wage increase (they get bonuses, but not wage increases factoring into a 50% increase over 5 years)

    Factor in teachers get a mandatory wage increase of 1% per year + cost of living increases...this nets to be around about the 4% mark per year. Again, no job I know offers that kind of wage increase (FYI - I checked with 4 different teachers I still am in contact with, who all said that's around what they get per year...all 4 are in different schools)

    Now additional duties - Well I had to do lunch duties 3 times a week as part of my contract, non-negotiable, but the perk there was that I got free lunch every day. Teachers where I worked, got an additional 1.5 hours pay for each day they did despite the lunch break being 1 hour. 1 teacher had signed up for every day, meaning he got an additional days pay per week, or an additional 1.7 months pay per year. According to the teachers that moved schools, that seems pretty much the norm that they will sign up for as many as possible to increase their wages.

    Being a Deputy HoD, got them an additional 2.5k - 6k per year, and being a HoD got them an additional 7.3k - 12.1k per year, depending on how long they've been in the role. If you have SEN duties as well, thats a further 2k-3k. So a teacher (not in the leadership group) but with some additional duties can get between 33k-45k a year.

    So, pay wise, lets say they do 5 days a month for lunch, so an extra days pay per month...which would be 12 days extra pay a year.

    At 31k a year, they're doing better than 55% of the UK working population in terms of wages, Before hitting Senior Leadership, they can pull in 31k (5 year NQT period ending) + 2.5k (DHoD) = 33.5k. Already they're doing better than 60% of the working force of the country. Factor in if they become a HOD it will increase to 38k which will put them at better than 63% of the work force.

    How can they say the pay they are given is poor?

    As for conditions, thats a school thing. Some are great, some not so great. This I can't really comment on, some schools are horrendous, some are lovely. As for holidays, they get 13 weeks a year, plus 4 weeks which can be taken term time (well the teachers I spoke to do)...lets immediately strike 8 weeks of that for marking and planning (realistically)...they still get 9 weeks holiday a year. Not many professions can say that they get that!

    Teachers may well work long hours during term time, but then again, Emergency Services and Armed Forces are on a permanent 24 hour call out should they be needed, and they have longer working hours, worse working conditions yet they are not allowed to strike because it would be illegal!
    Last edited by nephilim; 27th March 2014 at 03:31 PM. Reason: fixed horrible spelling errors

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim
    -snip-

    Teachers may well work long hours during term time, but then again, Emergency Services and Armed Forces are on a permanent 24 hour call out should they be needed, and they have longer working hours, worse working conditions yet they are not allowed to strike because it would be illegal!
    Which is absolutely ridiculous, if you ask me.
    Very well-written post, though. Nice to hear from someone who's been on both sides of the fence
    Last edited by Garacesh; 27th March 2014 at 04:04 PM.

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    sparkeh's Avatar
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    @nephilim
    That's a fine speech an' all but to boil down the grievences of teachers down to being miffed that they aren't paid enough is a gross misunderstanding of the situation (which a lot of people have and makes the Government rub their hands in glee).

    The campaign isn't about teachers being poorly paid, the NUT is more concerned with the introduction of Performance Related Pay, and just to head off the "But we have that in the private sector why should teachers be different" whinge the evidence suggests that there is no link between PRP and improved educational standards. In fact the link appears to be between well paid teaching staff who are afforded a high status in society (source: Does Performance-Based Pay Improve Teaching? - Papers - OECD iLibrary).

    Another issue is workload and pension changes.

  8. Thanks to sparkeh from:

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  9. #67

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    Which is absolutely ridiculous, if you ask me.
    Very well-written post, though. Nice to hear from someone who's been on both sides of the fence
    @Garacesh Just to be clear, your post quoted me as the author of that post. I wasn't, it was in fact @nephilim

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    @sparkeh Urgh, sorry, it's this stupid thing where threads won't forget what multi-quotes I've ticked. So I just deleted everything up to the first QUOTE tag and left the rest as-was. Muh-bad.

    Anyway, as I understand it yes, it's not "We're not getting paid enough". Performance Related Pay is downright ridiculous when you factor in that some staff (at least here) only have the 'naughty' classes. The classes of kids that don't want to learn and will obviously fail their GCSE's. So that's going to really screw them over (Or am I getting PRP mixed up? As always, please point out if I'm wrong)

    The pensions adjustments are a crock, too. I'd certainly be annoyed if that happened to me (which, AFAIK, it hasn't)

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    nephilim's Avatar
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    Pension changes I can understand, in fact, thankfully now the Auto Enrollment is in place, they're gonna be laughing. They get state pension, AE pension which goes to a private fund of their choosing, plus the government sector pension.

    As for performance reviews...Lets look at Finland. They are classed as the worlds number 1 for teaching and education. Now they have a few factors here, homework - there is none. Children are encouraged to learn what they want to learn outside of the basics of Native Language, Maths, Science and IT, so if you liked music and didn't like history, you spent more time focusing on music than history. This aids the childrens development and is proven, if they like something, they're more willing to learn. Add on top, to become a teacher in Finland, you need a minimum of a Masters Degree, and preferred to have a PhD. You can then apply, and of the applicants, only 10% are successful. From there, they go through a further years training on top.

    The average teacher wage in Finland is almost double what it is in the UK for a QTS teacher, but the results that Finland get reflect that the teachers have earned this. They have 100% literacy of all children in Finland by the age of 16, 97.8% IT, science and maths at grade B and above (including B+, A-, A, and A+). And for the subjects the children choose to learn after this, they have 95% at Grade B and above, 99.2% at Grade C and above.

    Teachers in Finland are on a yearly review, if they don't meet the standards for 2 years in a row, they are banned from teaching for life in Finland.

    *edit*

    If the teachers don't meet the standards 3 times in a 10 year period, they are also banned from teaching for life.
    Last edited by nephilim; 27th March 2014 at 04:13 PM.

  12. #70
    zag
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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    Teachers in Finland are on a yearly review, if they don't meet the standards for 2 years in a row, they are banned from teaching for life in Finland.
    Haha love it!

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    nephilim's Avatar
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    I will add, I've been on both sides of the fence before, I can see where the teachers are coming from, but in many cases they bring it on themselves. Lots leave marking until the last minute, and therefore struggle. Many don't write reports when they need too, and then struggle to get things done in time. I've worked in 2 schools, where the teachers asked to have a parents evening pushed back by a week, because they didn't have enough time to write the reports for the children, despite knowing the date for 2 months, and there was less than 300 pupils in both schools (Middle school, not primary or secondary, year 5 - year 8)

  14. #72

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Sure we can pick individual countries and say "Look they get good results and have performance related pay" but the point of the research linked above is that there is no link between PRP and achievement. There are high performing countries with PRD, high performing countries without PRD, low performing countries with PRP, low performing countries without PRP.

    A look at the overall picture reveals no relationship between average student performance in a country
    and the use of performance-based pay schemes
    Source: http://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisaproduct...s/50328990.pdf
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zag View Post
    Haha love it!
    Such negativity

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  16. #73

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Such negativity
    Wanting teachers to be the best they can be, and preventing them from teaching if they simply aren't good enough is not negativity. It is ensuring kids don't get damaged by mediocrity.

    That said, I'm not sure where I stand regarding teachers pensions. I believe the government have failed in their duty to do what's right by not getting all the facts before making changes to things, but at the same time I also think striking is not the way forward with this. If the government have made claims about affordability without getting the numbers together beforehand, then that is the ideal situation for a judicial review I'd say!

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    mthomas08's Avatar
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    @nephilim

    I like you, your like me, you deal with facts and provide a ton of information. And what's even better - you actually bothered

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    I remember reading and being impressed by the Finnish approach. however, there are many myths in circulation. Read the illuminating responses (by Finns) at the bottom of this article.
    The Finland Phenomenon: Inside the World's Most Surprising School System - THE DAILY RIFF - Be Smarter. About Education.
    Last edited by jinnantonnixx; 27th March 2014 at 04:38 PM.

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