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General Chat Thread, Is this right? in General; Originally Posted by webman Originally Posted by GrumbleDook That is what schools are about though ... and we are not ...
  1. #46

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by webman
    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    That is what schools are about though ... and we are not a unique industry when it comes to tying all jobs into something to do with the company.
    I don't agree. Many companies and oragnisations that have nothing to do with IT still rely upon IT systems and pay their IT Support handsomely - because they realise they can't function without it!
    But everything that support does has to be about what the key aim of the org is which in schools is t & l. So accountants office would expect system and your working to be based around core its business. As schools our core business is t & l not ict support.

    To go back to op question my views on us becoming more educationally focused are well documented.

    This is where i see how things fit.

    Creating the lesson plan - wrong
    Advising on technical elements of a LP - fine.
    Advising on new technologies and possible lesson ideas fine (in fact this to me is very important and something we must start doing lot more)
    Creating lesson based on new technologies - wrong.
    help create resources as in tonys example videoing a lesson - fine

    Key here is balance if an extra job fine but either be paid for that or need to make sure head understands support will suffer etc. Advising, giving lesson ideas are fine but writing plan of what teacher is to do in lesson is down to teacher but with advice from you.

  2. #47

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    Re: Is this right?

    I think we all generally agree that we should be involved in an advisory role. I do in fact think this is a must as it is us who knows the technology the school has and what it is capable of. But ultimately it is the teacher who does the actual planning of lesson plans.

    If the school is asking you to start preparing lessons and teach then then is not part of a technical support role and needs to be added to your exisiting contract with the appropriate pay scale adjustment.

  3. #48

    webman's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    I understand that Russ

    But surely maintaining the network and ensuring the IT is running adequately for delivering T&L qualify for being "about the key aim of the organisation"?

  4. #49

    dhicks's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    [Richard wrote:]
    > A school should be a place where a kid learns to be an Office Worker. If
    > you look at the standard of education today against what is required by
    > Industry then you will see that the kids are not learning the skills they
    > need to me a viable member of the workforce.

    Indeed they're not, they're being trained instead. Schools should exist to give children a broad education that allows them to adapt to whatever job they wind up doing after school and in the future. On the ICT side of things, we should be teaching children to tinker, fiddle, and figure out how things work.

    --
    David Hicks

  5. #50

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    Re: Is this right?

    On the ICT side of things we shouldn't be teaching them anything, the teachers should be!

    We should prove the staff training and equipment to allow them to do so, nothing more.

  6. #51

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    Re: Is this right?

    Pete10141748 - did you do that database lesson they asked you to do again? I would say as a matter of urgency you contact your union rep and ask the school for a copy of your contract if you dont have one. Now would be a good time to get this addressed. Coming to the end of the year gives you a chance to start fresh in the new year.

    Let us know how you get on.

  7. #52
    Friez's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Just like a teacher wouldn't normally expect to be fixing computers, it is not our jobs to teach the classes.

    Yes, our jobs are to aid the teaching and learning, but our job roles are NOT to be delivering the teaching directly, that is what teachers are employed to do, if they do not do so then what is their job? Sit around and do nothing?

    We aid the teaching and learning by ensuring ICT equipment is working and ready for use and also by giving advice and/or training to those who need to teach using ICT equipment. We do not do the job of the teacher, they should be focussed on teaching just like we should be focussed on our job at hand.

  8. #53

    elsiegee40's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmad
    On the ICT side of things we shouldn't be teaching them anything, the teachers should be!.
    This is such a subjective issue. It very much depends on the size of your school and a host of other things.

    Secondary schools are more like business where everyone has a job and that is what they do. You would no more expect the IT Technician to teach than you would expect an Insurance Company's Systems Programmer to do a shift in the post room.

    In the Primary School sector, the schools are much smaller and staff tend to muck in and help out as needed. They've often got more than one job title and many are informal. The difficult bit is setting the boundaries between helping out when a problem occurs and having something permanently added to your job description. Most of us probably have some sort of "any other tasks as required by the head" clause in our contracts.

    Me; I'm formally ICT Technician, Librarian and Publicity Assistant. I was ICT supply teacher on Thursday morning, Playground Supervisor for 20 minutes on Wednesday lunchtime and dresser for the nativity play on Monday when a teacher was ill.

    The important part is that you must be consulted about any change to your job description and if something starts to become a regular part of your job when it isn't what you are paid for, you need to make it clear (in writing) that you wish to renegotiate your job description.

  9. #54

    webman's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Friez
    if they do not do so then what is their job? Sit around and do nothing?

  10. #55

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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by elsiegee40
    Quote Originally Posted by Halfmad
    On the ICT side of things we shouldn't be teaching them anything, the teachers should be!.
    This is such a subjective issue. It very much depends on the size of your school and a host of other things.

    Secondary schools are more like business where everyone has a job and that is what they do. You would no more expect the IT Technician to teach than you would expect an Insurance Company's Systems Programmer to do a shift in the post room.

    In the Primary School sector, the schools are much smaller and staff tend to muck in and help out as needed. They've often got more than one job title and many are informal. The difficult bit is setting the boundaries between helping out when a problem occurs and having something permanently added to your job description. Most of us probably have some sort of "any other tasks as required by the head" clause in our contracts.

    Me; I'm formally ICT Technician, Librarian and Publicity Assistant. I was ICT supply teacher on Thursday morning, Playground Supervisor for 20 minutes on Wednesday lunchtime and dresser for the nativity play on Monday when a teacher was ill.

    The important part is that you must be consulted about any change to your job description and if something starts to become a regular part of your job when it isn't what you are paid for, you need to make it clear (in writing) that you wish to renegotiate your job description.
    That's very true, I spent a lot of time in primary schools helping out and tended to do a bit more than normal and would say I was far more flexible, partly down to have more time but also down to the attitude of staff. I think in secondary schools staff on the whole can be less flexible and this does rub off on IT and support staff, who stick more rigidly to their job descriptions

  11. #56

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    Re: Is this right?

    As Grumbledook and a few other have suggested creating a resource such as video requires technical expertise, thats fine, i dont mind creating or letting my techs create those types of resource. However what i do take exception to is creating powerpoints or simple spreadsheets, or a three-table access database. I'll help and advise or troubleshoot but not do it for them. A teacher should have atleast the knowledge of that subject that they are to teach. If they have a particularly able student that is asking questions far beyond the scope of the module / lesson etc that they teacher cannot help i'll gladly give support or even give the pupil extra tasks.
    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks
    On the ICT side of things, we should be teaching children to tinker, fiddle, and figure out how things work.
    If only teachers and other staff would be prepared to try things. dhicks raises another point here. If we are to involve the pupils more in their own learning and encouraging them to tinker and fiddle, and figure things out, maybe teachers could ask them to help with resources, finding out first hand what would get kids attention. Also improving cross curricular learning, e.g. as in grumbledook's example, videoing a science experiment for a vodcasting or as a future resource. Why not ask a pupil to stand there with the cam, or 2 students with cams getting different angles. Then they could use this video in their ICT work, or media studies lessons and edit it. Hey presto, a good resource, produced with nothing more than guidance from teacher or techs, showing cross curricular co-operation, embedding ICT into a core subject.

  12. #57
    tomscaper's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    There is one member of staff who regularly askes for help with writing up a sheet of paper into word, she will often come to me and say "tom can you write this up for me, i dont know how to"

    The attitude is that if it is ICT related then i do it. I dont mind explainig how to use something to help them and even sit down with them and show them how bit by bit. It is exactly the same that the kids do. I will help but i wont do there work for them. How will they ever learn.

  13. #58

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    Re: Is this right?

    As far as I am concerned, Russdev's description of what we should be doing is absolutely spot on
    I work in a first and a middle school and I am never asked to do anything other than my job - I am part time anyway and fitting in what I do do is difficult enough. In both schools the IT coord is pretty clued up and it is them who decide on resources etc.
    I do know someone who is an HLTA and IT coord and Network manager - but all roles are separated out

  14. #59
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    Re: Is this right?

    In my experience the longer a teacher is in teaching the more lazy they become.

    I nor any of my staff will be used to do the job which teachers get vastly overpaid for while they sit on their arses and drink coffee.....period.

  15. #60

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    Re: Is this right?

    Teachers aren't overpaid, I heard it on the radio that they're suffering from "underfunded salaries".

    Laughed when I heard it too :-P

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