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General Chat Thread, Is this right? in General; @halfmad I think you're right, I need to make it very clear where my responsabilities end in this matter. So ...
  1. #31
    Pete10141748's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    @halfmad

    I think you're right, I need to make it very clear where my responsabilities end in this matter.

    So far this week, I have prepared and taught a database lesson (which I have been asked to give again tomorrow to another class), preapred worksheets for testing another class using a "database" in Excel (?), and a powerpoint presentation where I was given the information "it about art, the artist Turner" and nothing more.

    Monday afternoon head of year/dept. meeting, I'm going to make it clear that I'm not here to do the job for them. If they don't like it, well thats just TFB as far as I'm concerned.

    Pete

  2. #32
    tomscaper's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Why is it often on here you read about teacher, smt and even the heads of schools asking technicians, support staff to do work that is not part of there job, they have no training what so ever in, and just expect you to roll over and do this.

    Is there a line in our job descriptions that says "we can, will and know how to do anything you ask". There doesnt seem to be a limit of what they ask.

    My time here has made me really hate teachers and management in schools, as i have been forced in to situations where i have had to do things i have no even knew a thing about. I am not a teacher and never want to be, only once i was pushed into teaching a class, which was a complete mess. Luckily nothing happened but the chance was there.

    Mabye i am to quiet and often just do things, but that is my nature and i do want to help, i enjoy it. I wouldnt work here if i didnt.

    @ Pete10141748 - Like alot of people if your not in a union, i would deffinately join up. There was a recent post about a technician been asked to do something, and he got the union involved and the head backed down, you need to show them not to mess with you.

  3. #33

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    Re: Is this right?

    I think it comes down to what people are employed to do. It is obvious that all schools are different as are their needs, but we all do a very similar job - Look after the network.

    If you have been employed to support the network and staff & pupils in their use of the equipment then I dont believe that you can be expected to prepare lesson plans for thet teachers. If however, you have been employed to create resources and plan lessons on top of running the network and general ICT facilities, then you will have to do it.

    Realisticly, I doubt anyone is employed to create worksheets, lesson plans, even resources for the teachers to use as an IT Technician. I'm not, so I wouldn't do it, even if I had the time, there are other things I could spend my time on which would be far more beneficial. The teachers have been trained, got the experience and are paid to do this, trying to pass it on to someone else because the staff aren't capable is wrong.

    Pete - Sorry mate, but you have got to start saying no. For someone to expect you to drop everything and bail them out because they didn't understand the subject they are teaching is wrong. What would have happened if there was an emergency and you were called away to fix it? Would the teacher have taken over or would the lesson have halted? If there are teachers in your school who do not know how to teach their subject it needs to be addressed.


    edit: On a lighter note, if your actually teaching - does that mean you get a pay rise to match the teachers then? :twisted:

  4. #34
    Vegas's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Alternatively; the next time OFSTED visit have a word with the inspector!

  5. #35
    tomscaper's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    The problem is that our jobs are very vague such as support staff - that could mean anything, does it mean help them no matter what, or is there a limit to help. It seems teachers know what they can do and cannot do, and regularly tell everyone.

    I have been here for 2 years, never once seen a contract, job description or even know what it is that i am meant to do. my boss trained me and half explained what i do, but that didnt cover the what i dont do.

    Sometimes i get complained because i cant help someone as i dont know how to use the software, dont know how to do this that or the other. Do they really expect me to know everything, and have an answer for anything they come up with.

  6. #36
    Butuz's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Haha that made me chuckle into my coffee. The famous teacher workload agreement huh...... "I DO NOT have to plug a computer in to the wall", "I DO NOT have to do any photocopying"..........."I DO NOT have to set up my own classroom displays" what’s going to come next? By the sound of it - it may be "I DO NOT have to prepare teaching resources for my own lessons"!

    I agree with much that has been said on both sides of the argument. But I will state in my opinion, as a Network Manager, I am categorically not employed to create learning resources / lesson plans for teachers. That's their job, It's what they get paid for. It's actually in their job description! It sure is not in mine!

    My job is of course to provide technical support during their lessons, to provide ongoing training and CPD to them, and also to advise them on how to use and embed ICT in their lessons. BUT there is a big difference between advising and supporting them - and doing it for them. Once you cross that line, you will find it very hard to come back.

    As for embedding ICT across the curriculum - that is the job of the ICT Coordinator (or SMT member with ICT responsibility). It's the ICT-co's job to plan the ICT across al subjects, and its the Teacher's job to implement their plans. It is our job to support this - but not DO IT. That’s why ICT-co'
    s get paid 40k odd, teachers get paid 30k odd, and i don't! :cry:

    Andrew

  7. #37

    elsiegee40's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas
    Alternatively; the next time OFSTED visit have a word with the inspector!
    Couldn't agree more. I'm not sure that their inspectors would take a particularly bright view of teachers not doing their own lesson plans.

    As a member of the school's support staff you shouldn't be expected to know about differentiation, targets, plenaries, etc!

    There are many ready made lesson plans available on the web, but the individual teacher is expected to taylor plans for their own class needs.

    I took 3 ICT lessons this morning as the ICT Co-ordinator had to attend an offsite meeting at short notice. However, I taught to her plans and it was a one off. She often discusses her plans with me to make sure that what she wants to do is feasible and so that I can explain the bits she's not sure how to do... I don't have a problem with that. I'd be following this one up with the union.

  8. #38

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Do people mind if I play Devil's Advocate here?

    Take school A ... they have a a good, working network with a decent number of machines, both in dedicated suites for teaching ICT and additional resources for other subjects.

    They are now at the point where they actually want to make a real difference in how ICT impacts on lessons. Part of that is changing how teachers plan their lessons to include more ICT based resources, to make use of learning platforms and so on.

    Yes, this does mean that they have to do a fair chunk of work, but the creation of certain resources (eg videoing science experiments and editing them to make them available for vodcasts) will be done by others ... building flash objectives ... and so on.

    There are some schools that have decided that they need to employ people specifically to do this, but other schools do not have the chance to do this yet, for a variety or reasons including finances, existing staff capacity, whole school vision and future plans for the school (including BSF).

    One thing that has been raised before is that members worried about BSF need to look at the opportunities to change your roll within your school so that you have more of an educational focus ... meaning the school wants to not only keep you on but it can give you more chances of it too.

    For some people this is a good chance, for others it does not fit in with what they want to do with their future career.

    One key thing is that this is something that cannot just be thrown at you ... it has to be planned and cannot just be done in separation to everything else that is going on with changing how students are learning and how students teach. Aha ... your knowledge of VLEs now jumps to the fore ... arise eLearning Manager.

  9. #39

    webman's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    A big issue for people on our side of the fence I think, is that there is no equivalent of TLRs that teachers get paid (almost instantly) when they take on additional responsibilities.

    If we accept an additional responsibility or role, we have to wait until the next pay review and hope and prey we get what we ask for.

    This whole "every role has to be directly linked to T&L" thing really gets on my nerves.

  10. #40

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    That is what schools are about though ... and we are not a unique industry when it comes to tying all jobs into something to do with the company.

    There are no standard job descriptions, no standard pay scheme to tie in with it.

    It is down to you, your school and your school's needs.

  11. #41
    torledo's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    Do people mind if I play Devil's Advocate here?

    Take school A ... they have a a good, working network with a decent number of machines, both in dedicated suites for teaching ICT and additional resources for other subjects.

    They are now at the point where they actually want to make a real difference in how ICT impacts on lessons. Part of that is changing how teachers plan their lessons to include more ICT based resources, to make use of learning platforms and so on.

    Yes, this does mean that they have to do a fair chunk of work, but the creation of certain resources (eg videoing science experiments and editing them to make them available for vodcasts) will be done by others ... building flash objectives ... and so on.

    There are some schools that have decided that they need to employ people specifically to do this, but other schools do not have the chance to do this yet, for a variety or reasons including finances, existing staff capacity, whole school vision and future plans for the school (including BSF).

    One thing that has been raised before is that members worried about BSF need to look at the opportunities to change your roll within your school so that you have more of an educational focus ... meaning the school wants to not only keep you on but it can give you more chances of it too.

    For some people this is a good chance, for others it does not fit in with what they want to do with their future career.

    One key thing is that this is something that cannot just be thrown at you ... it has to be planned and cannot just be done in separation to everything else that is going on with changing how students are learning and how students teach. Aha ... your knowledge of VLEs now jumps to the fore ... arise eLearning Manager.
    I agree with what you say about adapting of roles. But I think there's a lot of unnecessary concern over job security with BSF. There are an awful lot of rewarding, career enhancing jobs in both the corporate and other areas of the public sector. Following on from the IT spending lull after the dotcom implosion and the Y2K scaremongering, industry and public bodies are now investing in IT in a big way, and they'll need experienced people to fill the skills shortage, particularly in local government where they have been investing heavily in meeting the e-government targets. And ofcourse within LA's they have promoted people with education experience in schools to various roles. I imagine a role such as technology consultant or VLE consultant is a role that many on here could aspire to (if that's what rocks your boat) whether that be for an LA or education service provider, maybe even for the new BSF IT supplier who's won the contract for your school. Comparable roles are everywhere. LA's, universities, service providers....the list is very long.

    As grumbledook intimates at you may be to adapt your role in the school inline with the changes that are and will be happening or take up a new role that reflects the new direction, but if being an elearning manager or become more involved in the education side isn't for you there are plenty of opportunities out there. Look at redundancy or resignation as an opportunity and you'll likely to land a more, lucrative and career enhancing job outside of the safety of your schools' four walls.

    Job satisfaction and loyalty are all very well but the bottom line is career progression and competitive salaries are equally as important as enjoying what you do. And the best way to achieve that is to move on every few years.

  12. #42
    richard
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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks
    It doesn't matter how businesses work, schools shouldn't be teaching children How To Be An Office Worker. Office work is dull, especially to a school child, and schools should be interesting places.
    Bull...........

    A school should be a place where a kid learns to be an Office Worker. If you look at the standard of education today against what is required by Industry then you will see that the kids are not learning the skills they need to me a viable member of the workforce.

  13. #43

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    @Richard - schools are not training institutions, they are education institutions. There is a major difference. One teaches skills, the other imparts knowledge.

    There are many thousands of different jobs around, and training for the office would be completely pointless and inappropriate. What about those who want to become teachers, nurses, doctors, engineers, electricians, plumbers, carpenters etc... Office work is only a small part of the economy.

    Kids should be learning stuff which makes them a good all round person, stuff that makes them think for themselves, that makes them want to be the best they can. It should teach a wide syllabus so as to do this.

    If, at a later age they wish to become office workers, that is up to them - that would be post 16 (or post 18) training then. Anything in a school should not be focussed on a single career or type of career.

  14. #44

    webman's Avatar
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    Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    That is what schools are about though ... and we are not a unique industry when it comes to tying all jobs into something to do with the company.
    I don't agree. Many companies and oragnisations that have nothing to do with IT still rely upon IT systems and pay their IT Support handsomely - because they realise they can't function without it!

  15. #45
    richard
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    Re: Is this right?

    I am being cynical about this as I have seen the standards in education fall since I started working in schools in 1999.

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