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General Chat Thread, The Big Benefits Row in General; @ AlexB illbridgenorth I find your attitude a little bit scary to be honest. The mere fact you used the ...
  1. #91
    ButterflyMoon's Avatar
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    @AlexBillbridgenorth I find your attitude a little bit scary to be honest. The mere fact you used the Stephen Hawking example shows that you think ALL disabled people can work no matter what is wrong with them. With the best will in the world Mr Hawking probably has had better finance and care in his life which ENABLED him to continue. Can your ordinary poor bugger in a chair say the same? There is such a thing as differentiation what one person can cope with someone else may well not. I totally agree with you regarding 'them that CHOOSE not to work' but unless there are changes to the whole welfare system these people will continue to milk it for all it's worth.

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    The "Nazi" comments, I guess are talking about Eugenics. Worth looking up. If it wasn't for the fact that Hitler demonstrated the ulimate horror of Eugenics I think it would be common practice today. You have to consider that both Roosavelt and Churchill were once supporters of it. People would have just swallowed what the government of the day put out in an attempt to socially engineer a consensus and we'd have grown up with the idea and accepted it as normal, well most of us would....

  3. #93

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    But even then if you do research theres no actual real world evidence. Like I said my girlfriends mother is playing the system by saying she is depressed. Just because someone states they have a problem and get the doctor to agree with something that isn't true doesn't mean they are not cheating the system. Under the governments and statistics eyes my girlfriends mum isn't doing any kind of Benefit fraud as it has all been confirmed by the doctor but the actual truth is she is. I know far too often of people that do this especially where I come from, even to the extent of having more kids just so they can get more benefit money in a sense that's cheating the system. I somehow don't believe only 1% of benefit frauds out there and we will never find the true answer because if you're a good fraud you'll never get found out and actually look genuine!
    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    OK, I accept that Stephen Hawking was just an example but it was a really bad example.

    Like I have said, there are people who game the system there's no denying that but do your research (and I don't mean in the tabloids) - official figures estimate just 1% of the total benefits budget is lost to fraud. One percent. What irritates me whenever this conversation comes up is that far too many people tar all benefit claimants with the "scrounger" brush when those that are defrauding the system make up a tiny minority of claimants.

    My point is, you cannot punish the 99% of honest benefits claimants just because 1% are taking advantage. To be honest, I think 1% is pretty good!

    There are much bigger problems in this country but benefit fraud is an easy scape goat that can be wheeled out to give the masses a common enemy while they ignore the bigger picture. The government must have thought Christmas had come early when "Benefits Street" hit the screen.

  4. #94

    abillybob's Avatar
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    No they can't and I understand that some people can't but also some can and are more than capable and by them saying I have a bad back should not be excuse to be able to go on benefits.
    Quote Originally Posted by ButterflyMoon View Post
    @AlexBillbridgenorth I find your attitude a little bit scary to be honest. The mere fact you used the Stephen Hawking example shows that you think ALL disabled people can work no matter what is wrong with them. With the best will in the world Mr Hawking probably has had better finance and care in his life which ENABLED him to continue. Can your ordinary poor bugger in a chair say the same? There is such a thing as differentiation what one person can cope with someone else may well not. I totally agree with you regarding 'them that CHOOSE not to work' but unless there are changes to the whole welfare system these people will continue to milk it for all it's worth.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    - official figures estimate just 1% of the total benefits budget is lost to fraud.
    From Official gov.uk site:

    This National Statistics report has been published according to the arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority.

    The report estimates fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain:

    for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 2.1% of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error, the same as the 2011 to 2012 estimate
    the estimated value of overpayments is £3.5 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £3.4 billion
    for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 0.9% of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimate (0.8%)
    the estimated value of underpayments is £1.6 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £1.3 billion
    The report includes Employment and Support Allowance official error estimates.

    These statistics have recently been assessed by the UK Statistics Authority.

    If you have any comments, questions or any general queries regarding our publication, please email the Fraud and Error Measurement Analysis Team

    Next release: May 2014.

  6. #96

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    I honestly believe that most people in this country want to work for a living. There are those that don't and will find ways and means of not doing so but they are the minority and should be treated as such. My major issue with this whole debate is how exaggerated a problem it is.

    Here's an interesting article from Citizen's Advice Scotland (remember when they were state funded? my mistake, they still receive some funding just not as much as they once did): Myth-busting: the real figures on benefit fraud | Citizens Advice Scotland

    @HallX - yes, 2.1% for fraud and error i.e. overpayments due to mistakes in the application or administrative errors, all/most of which is recovered. Have a look at that article I just posted for more details.
    Last edited by LosOjos; 4th February 2014 at 04:44 PM.

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    I think maybe I didn't word my post very well. I think what am trying to say is this @AlexBillbridgenorth what makes you qualified to actually KNOW how bad someone back is or why they are on benefits. Have you got a medical background or do you work on the side for Atos. It is just your posts come over very judgemental I am sorry if I have misread them if this is not the case. Yes agreed there are shysters that buck the system but very many people have health issues that stop them from working for whatever reason.

  8. #98

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    Yep and people will always have their own opinions so this debate will go on forever and it's a sensitive subject for the media to twist! This is what causes these problems in the first place! For me it's just about prioritising what's most important and when it's my money given to these people I damn well like to know what's going on with it and at the end of the day if they choose to spend more on fags, booze and the latest gadgets then they do food and essentials that is my personal morels stepping in and saying it is wrong. So please don't take what I have said in the post literally the subject winds me up and like most of the public your defence mechanism gets higher and higher. I'm a nice person honestly

  9. Thanks to abillybob from:

    ButterflyMoon (4th February 2014)

  10. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbillbridgnorth View Post
    No they can't and I understand that some people can't but also some can and are more than capable and by them saying I have a bad back should not be excuse to be able to go on benefits.
    There's a difference between having a bad back, and having a back condition that prevents you from walking, sitting etc. There can be issues like being in too much pain or neurological conditions like narcolepsy (not recognised as a work preventing issue) that WILL prevent you from working or holding down a full time job.

    What is society if it does not help those in need to live? If you do not provide a safety net for people that cannot go to work, you'll simply having people dying on the streets (which you do, but lets ignore them because they are beggars and scroungers). Lets ignore the people driven to suicide due to cuts in benefits.

    Someone I know was forced to go 25miles to a "free" work placement to get his benefits. They refused to allow him to work for a charity in his town. Can you run a car to do 50 miles a day on benefits as well as rent, food, heating and living? No. He refused as he would be out of pocket and is now removed from the government statistics on the unemployed. He now does cash in hand jobs to survive.

    You're living in government/dailymail fairy land if you think being on benefits is some kind of fag smoking, beer drinking luxury.

    It may happen to you and if it does you'll be pissed off the amount of ignorant ***** that think anyone that isn't a quadropedic isnt fit for work and is scrounging off the measly amount you pay in tax.


    Our money isn't just here to go to war, pay serco for private prisons and prop up banks. We pay tax for a reason, the entire social system is being destroyed without reducing the tax collected reduced to compensate to pay for war debts. We are being manipulated, well some of us are.
    Last edited by Theblacksheep; 4th February 2014 at 04:56 PM.

  11. 4 Thanks to Theblacksheep:

    ButterflyMoon (4th February 2014), Earthling (5th February 2014), LosOjos (4th February 2014), tmcd35 (4th February 2014)

  12. #100
    GeekyPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HallX View Post
    From Official gov.uk site:

    This National Statistics report has been published according to the arrangements approved by the UK Statistics Authority.

    The report estimates fraud and error levels in the benefit system in Great Britain:

    for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 2.1% of total benefit expenditure was overpaid due to fraud and error, the same as the 2011 to 2012 estimate
    the estimated value of overpayments is £3.5 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £3.4 billion
    for 2012 to 2013 it is estimated that 0.9% of total benefit expenditure was underpaid due to fraud and error, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimate (0.8%)
    the estimated value of underpayments is £1.6 billion, which is a rise from the 2011 to 2012 estimated value of £1.3 billion
    The report includes Employment and Support Allowance official error estimates.

    These statistics have recently been assessed by the UK Statistics Authority.

    If you have any comments, questions or any general queries regarding our publication, please email the Fraud and Error Measurement Analysis Team

    Next release: May 2014.
    Thank you for this... Now can some one explain to me why the co-Attrition Government are not cutting the budget by 2.1%

    Budget for 2013 £159Bn, that's with £7Bn already cut and a further £10bn on the way. That's over 10%, some benefits like Housing benefit are being cut by 14%.

    Stop being manipulated, get informed This is not about cutting fraud! You are being manipulated so there is a ground swell of opinion. They need a consenus and now you are doing Cameron's job for him!

  13. #101

    abillybob's Avatar
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    Please read my previous post! I have been a bit out of order at some points and don't think like I have portrayed at all, it's when topics like this it gets my back up as I experience it first hand with my girlfriends parents I don't think that everyone with a disability should go to work can I please just clarify this!
    Quote Originally Posted by Theblacksheep View Post
    There's a difference between having a bad back, and having a back condition that prevents you from walking, sitting etc. There can be issues like being in too much pain or neurological conditions like narcolepsy (not recognised as a work preventing issue) that WILL prevent you from working or holding down a full time job.

    What is society if it does not help those in need to live? If you do not provide a safety net for people that cannot go to work, you'll simply having people dying on the streets (which you do, but lets ignore them because they are beggars and scroungers). Lets ignore the people driven to suicide due to cuts in benefits.

    Someone I know was forced to go 25miles to a "free" work placement to get his benefits. They refused to allow him to work for a charity in his town. Can you run a car to do 50 miles a day on benefits as well as food, heating and living? No. He refused as he would be out of pocket and is now removed from the government statistics on the unemployed. He now does cash in hand jobs to survive.

    It may happen to you and if it does you'll be pissed off the amount of ignorant ***** that think anyone that isn't a quadropedic isnt fit for work and is scrounging off the measly amount you pay in tax. Our money isn't just here to go to war, pay serco for private prisons and prop up banks.

  14. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbillbridgnorth View Post
    Yep and people will always have their own opinions so this debate will go on forever and it's a sensitive subject for the media to twist! This is what causes these problems in the first place! For me it's just about prioritising what's most important and when it's my money given to these people I damn well like to know what's going on with it and at the end of the day if they choose to spend more on fags, booze and the latest gadgets then they do food and essentials that is my personal morels stepping in and saying it is wrong. So please don't take what I have said in the post literally the subject winds me up and like most of the public your defence mechanism gets higher and higher. I'm a nice person honestly
    I really hope that you don't end up as "one of these people". Many people find themselves on disability after working for decades. And if you do you, that will "Damn well" show me your finances or lack there of so I can apply my own personal morals to how you choose to spend what little you have...

  15. #103

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    If I ever have to go on benefits for some reason! I will make sure I myself prioritise what I spend the money on food, gas, electric etc... shouldn't everyone? As long as I could get by that's what I'd spend my money on! This comment makes no sense and you personally couldn't choose what I spent my money on but the government can as far as I'm concerned it's their money not mine.
    Quote Originally Posted by GeekyPete View Post
    I really hope that you don't end up as "one of these people". Many people find themselves on disability after working for decades. And if you do you, that will "Damn well" show me your finances or lack there of so I can apply my own personal morals to how you choose to spend what little you have...

  16. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earthling View Post
    My thoughts exactly. I'm staying out of this one as much as possible. It's degraded again into petty jealousies, finger pointing and anecdotal evidence, into which this debate will always fall, until, we, as a society evolve a way of living in the Technological Age/Revolution/Era, call it what you will. A way of living and thinking that starts with understanding that never, ever again will there be enough work for everyone to have a full-time job, that some people will never, ever work in their whole lifetime and ends with dealing with the consequences of those simple, unavoidable facts.

    I don't care that so-and-so down the road hasn't worked a day in his life but has a bigger TV than me, faster broadband or more-Designer label shoes than I have, even though I've worked all my life. That is their choice, this is mine.

    I care more about the non-collection of tax from rich businessmen, multi-nationals and the tax loopholes and ridiculous Company Law system that allow these people and corporations to operate in this manner. Loopholes which the government we, as a society, elected but which they don't seem able or willing, to close.

    If my taxes weren't funding the welfare system, they'd be funding something else. Don't be fooled for one moment, any of you, that cutting the Benefit Bill, catching a few cheats, will reduce your taxes or lead to a better lifestyle for yourself and your loved ones......it won't.

    It's just an easy way to Divide and Rule. Which the majority of you have fallen for.
    I'm far from jealous, just so you know.

  17. #105

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    The argument about the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor is such a waste of time - the question is what do you want to do about people who have not (for any reason) got a job - are you going to provide some sort of welfare so they don't starve on the street or are you happy to let that happen?

    If the latter, then there's nothing further to be discussed.

    If the former, you can start to think about how much.

    Sanctioning people because you don't like their attitude or choices is pointless whenever there are fewer jobs than the number of unemployed, in fact the lazy or feckless person is providing a service by not competing for the small number of jobs that there actually are.

    Really there is no logical reason to be annoyed or upset with them until there are unfilled vacancies and all the other people have got jobs - that's when you would be justified in having a crackdown on people who are not working.



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