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General Chat Thread, The Big Benefits Row in General; You are wrong. Simple as that. It is not up to the government to decide if someone is well or ...
  1. #31

    localzuk's Avatar
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    You are wrong. Simple as that. It is not up to the government to decide if someone is well or not. Its up to doctors. If a doctor signs you off as depressed, that is good enough for me. My mother has suffered with depression for many years, to the extent that many days she couldn't even get out of bed. How could someone hold a job in that state?

    You don't get depression from just work, stress and anger - depression is an illness caused by a great many things, such as bereavement, other illness, a relationship failing. Some people are susceptible due to having low self esteem or being too self-critical. It can be a family trait even! Pregnancy/giving birth can cause it. Loneliness. Alcohol/drug addiction.

    A great many causes.

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  3. #32
    mthomas08's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbillbridgnorth View Post
    I liked the quote of the man from Africa in benefits street who said: In Africa if you don't work you don't get simple as that. For people with severe disabilities benefits should be allowed for but not for people who can sit at a desk and type on a keyboard "depression" doesn't stop you typing on a keyboard!
    Thing is if the system doesn't get sorted out we have one outcome and the government has already started it. Which simply is squeezing the system until there is very little left. As shown in this discussion there are people who still feel its their right to get it and do what they want with it.
    A system will get abused but our benefit system is far too easy to abuse. It really does turn me in to fury simply because I know people who should be on benefits and they get so little because of the scroungers. Maybe its the area I grew up in, I actually do know streets like what was on TV. I actually do know several people living the easy life and don't want to work. I also know people who have family who do the exact same thing.

    Its a system being over abused and it will continue to be squeezed because people like me will vote for anyone (yes anyone) who is prepared to be hard on the benefit system.

  4. #33

    abillybob's Avatar
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    I'm sorry if I've offended anyone with the depression thing that really didn't mean much to me it was just an example I was putting across and it was probably used wrongly so I apologise for this! It's just a subject that angers me as I experience it first hand and my girlfriend is always the one that suffers as her parent would rather spend 100's a week on booze, cat food and fags rather than their children. It's a topic that really angers me and it's funny that when I was talking to my girlfriends mum and asked her about depression she just winked and did a money sign and laughed, she told me it helps towards costs and that she doesn't she just played the doctor! You can't prove depression it's like whiplash! But that's another story I'm not going to post any more on this as the topic just makes me angry!

  5. #34

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexbillbridgnorth View Post
    No but if your friend gives you £10 as you're struggling to buy essentials for your home and then you went and spent it on fags and booze would you see that socially acceptable? Point being is the tax payer is the friend and the person on benefits is misusing. It angers me as I'm paying for my girlfriend mum to buy fags and alcohol in excess and yet my girlfriend has had the same mattress for the last 10 years! All about priorities and if people aren't going to set their priorities straight the tax payer should be able to dictate what other people are spending their tax money on!
    Tobacco and alcahol are drugs. People who have been dependant on them for any length of time, most start experimenting as teenagers remember, don't have any real choices. It's a drug dependancy and society should treat it as such. Maybe there's more the medical profession can do to help these people? Maybe there's more that can be done to educate at a younger age so they don't full into this trap.

    Dictating how the majority must live their lifes based on the poor choices of a minority is wrong. It's big brother. Will you give up your personal freedoms that easily?

    To my mind what you are describing is a social problem not a welfare problem.

  6. #35

    Garacesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Tobacco and alcahol are drugs. People who have been dependant on them for any length of time, most start experimenting as teenagers remember, don't have any real choices. It's a drug dependancy and society should treat it as such. Maybe there's more the medical profession can do to help these people? Maybe there's more that can be done to educate at a younger age so they don't full into this trap.

    Dictating how the majority must live their lifes based on the poor choices of a minority is wrong. It's big brother. Will you give up your personal freedoms that easily?

    To my mind what you are describing is a social problem not a welfare problem.
    I think you're taking it a little too far. Stamps/vouchers wouldn't be to the tune of "You have to go to Asda, buy a loaf of bread, a tub of butter, 2 pints of semi-skimmed milk, a pack of 6 tomatoes' etc. More, (or at least how I would vision it) is "Your dole is £160 per fortnight. We will allocate £40 of this as food stamps, which can be spent at $shop[1], $shop[2], $shop[3]. £100 will be allocated for bills funding. The final £20 can be used any way you please." (of course these are arbitrary figures pulled out of my butt)

    These could be issued in the form of pre-paid(ish) cards. We have the technology to do it. I certainly don't consider this 'big brother'. But if you must be so exaggerative - you're damn right. If I'm going to loan you money, I want to know exactly what you're spending it on, and if I don't approve, you're not getting my money. If a friend came to me and said "Hey, look, my pay's FUBAR'd. Can I borrow £20 just to get some food in?" I'd give it to them. If they came to me and said "Look, can I get £20 to go buy some $drugs" they'd be told to sod off. If I found out that £20 for 'food' was spent on $drugs, I would not loan them any money ever again because they had abused my trust.

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  8. #36

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    I think you're taking it a little too far. Stamps/vouchers wouldn't be to the tune of "You have to go to Asda, buy a loaf of bread, a tub of butter, 2 pints of semi-skimmed milk, a pack of 6 tomatoes' etc. More, (or at least how I would vision it) is "Your dole is £160 per fortnight. We will allocate £40 of this as food stamps, which can be spent at $shop[1], $shop[2], $shop[3]. £100 will be allocated for bills funding. The final £20 can be used any way you please." (of course these are arbitrary figures pulled out of my butt)
    But...

    My bills only come to £90 and there is food I want to buy from $shop[5] for £10. But $shop[5] isn't on the "approved" list and besides that £10 is allocated for bills so I can't use it for food...

  9. #37

    Garacesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    But...

    My bills only come to £90 and there is food I want to buy from $shop[5] for £10. But $shop[5] isn't on the "approved" list and besides that £10 is allocated for bills so I can't use it for food...
    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    Honestly I think food stamps and photographic ID are the way forward. The jobcentre have deals with Burton and other companies for clothing grants if you need to refresh your wardrobe for an interview, I'm certain the same could be done with the large supermarket chains. Even if it means spending half an hour to an hour with each new claimant deciding the allocation of food/clothing/etc ratios (as admittedly each circumstance is different).
    I already addressed this in my post on page 2
    I understand ratios would need to be tailored - and you'd need to be allowed to request alterations if circumstances change. But I do believe there needs to be some limitation of where and what can be purchased with it.

    As for $shop[5] not being on the list, if things were to as I envision them in my scenario, it would be up to $shop[5] to apply to be on the allowed list. If they were caught breaking the terms, they would be removed.
    Last edited by Garacesh; 4th February 2014 at 12:29 PM.

  10. #38

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Sorry, tldr;

    Just had a read of the last paragraph - EEK!

    Are you seriously suggesting I sit down with a government official and justify my personal spending decisions? And have to go back begging if I want to ever change the ratio's, even as a 1 off (I don't know - buy a birthday present or something)?

  11. #39

    Edu-IT's Avatar
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    I know of people on benefits who can afford to eat out at restaurants multiple times a week. I work 40 hours or more and can't do that. Where is justification in that? I'm not saying everyone is in this boat, but there are people who do it, and people who get away with doing it.

  12. #40
    cpjitservices's Avatar
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    I wish I could afford to do the simplest thing of own a Car... I have 2 kids it'd be great to take them out. I can't better my job because employers want a full driving license, I cant afford to do my driving test because I dont get paid enough, even If I did pass my test I couldn't afford to run a car anyway with the price of insurance etc.

    I know of people on benefits with more than One car, and i'm not talking cheap cars either!!
    Last edited by cpjitservices; 4th February 2014 at 12:38 PM.

  13. #41

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    It's interesting that we seem to know so much about the life choices and sacrafices some people make to be able to afford a car or go to a resturant that we can so easilly blame them when our own life choices and sacrafices mean we can't afford such things...

  14. #42

    Garacesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Sorry, tldr;

    Just had a read of the last paragraph - EEK!

    Are you seriously suggesting I sit down with a government official and justify my personal spending decisions? And have to go back begging if I want to ever change the ratio's, even as a 1 off (I don't know - buy a birthday present or something)?
    In a mature debate like this you probably shouldn't tl;dr anything that get said.
    Honestly, yes, I am. If you want their money, you definitely should justify why, even if only loosely. I wouldn't give someone money without a justifiable reason because that's my money and they want it, of course I'd need a reason. Why shouldn't the jobcentre? The 'flat rate' for JSA is ridiculous anyway. Sometimes it's not enough for a person in certain circumstances, other times it's way too much.
    Some of the JSA money would be unrestricted, as I mentioned earlier, so you'll have no trouble paying for that birthday present if you save up a little each month like everybody else does.

  15. #43
    cpjitservices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    It's interesting that we seem to know so much about the life choices and sacrafices some people make to be able to afford a car or go to a resturant that we can so easilly blame them when our own life choices and sacrafices mean we can't afford such things...
    Sacrifices ?

    What Can I sacrifice to own a car ? Not have any gas or electric ?... or not pay my water bill or my rent ?. I live basically as do my family... I dont have a massive TV or Sky, I have basic freeview. My PC is a Pentium 4 machine because I dont have the money to upgrade. I dont have laptops for each of us or tablets etc!!!

    SO tell me.... What can I sacrifice to own a car ??????

    The folk I know on benefits, have Massive TV's, they have the highest Sky Subscription, They eat better than I do, the kids have better stuff than mine..... This is all material as my kids want for nothing and know the true value of things but this takes the mick when My sister in-laws guy has NEVER and I do mean NEVER worked a day in his life, he's 33. Never had a job... If you saw his house, his car and the way he lives I'm not kidding you'd think he was wealthy. He Sacrifices nothing at all. This guy once asked me "Why do you work? YOu do know you can sit on your arse spend more time with your family at home and still get decent money"? - he gets more benefits a month than I get paid wages.

    My sister in laws boyfriend, has 4 kids and gets income support because he suffers from migraines, all the time I've known him he's never had one, and has admitted to me that he blaggs it all the time, even to the doctor. He uses the 4 kids moneys to buy thinsg and gives his wife (yes his WIFE) £30 for shopping and house keeping and he pockets the rest.

    Sacrifices ???
    Last edited by cpjitservices; 4th February 2014 at 12:48 PM.

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  17. #44

    featured_spectre's Avatar
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    I was in the position where I had to make a choice, my medication or food on my daughters plate (I quite frankly couldn't afford both). Knew nothing about the prepayment certs for JSA/ESA etc, so struggled through. Rationed my medication.

    Now I am in a paying job, so pay £10 a month for prepayment cert.

    Thing is, different people have different priorities. If it werent for the fact I have a child (with a 2nd on the way) I would have easily chosen medication over food for myself. Some people don't see children as a priority (and frankly, those should be shot).

  18. #45

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    In a mature debate like this you probably shouldn't tl;dr anything that get said.
    You are right, my apologies.

    Honestly, yes, I am. If you want their money, you definitely should justify why, even if only loosely. I wouldn't give someone money without a justifiable reason because that's my money and they want it, of course I'd need a reason. Why shouldn't the jobcentre?
    It's interesting that giving government officials that much power over your life doesn't bother you. How much can they dictate before they've gone to far? What of the companies who are not on the approved list? Do they go out of business when they loose custom?



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