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General Chat Thread, The Big Benefits Row in General; Originally Posted by sted but you CANT change the system there is no way you can get rid of the ...
  1. #181

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    but you CANT change the system there is no way you can get rid of the current top 3 parties and they will never abandon it as it server their interests well
    It's amazing how wrong that actually is. The reason for the referendum was because the Lib-Dems insisted on it as condition to coalition - current system doesn't serve them at all. It's Tory and Labour who constantly vote it down.

    What's interesting about the referendum is it was "post-legislative" meaning had the people turned out and voted for AV, there would have been no choice but to make it happen.

    Parliament won't ever do it of it's own accord because, as you say, it the current system serves Labour and Tory purposes. But it is we, the people, who missed the opportunity if we don't like the existing system.

  2. #182

    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mthomas08 View Post
    Now that the parties are seeming desperate for voters and coming up with things I actually want I will be voting.
    The problem is, they can tell you whatever they like during election campaigns but are under no obligation to deliver it; a fact which infuriates me. I think they should have to put down their promises in black and white along with time frames for delivery and they should be held to them if elected. Failure to deliver on an election promise within said time frame results in automatic re-election. I know sometimes things happen which are out of anybody's control, the government included, so that could prevent them doing certain things they said they would but then it would be up to them to convince the public that it was genuinely out of their hands if they want the re-election to swing in their favour.

  3. #183

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    @LosOjos, the reason we have general (and by-) elections is for that very reason. To hold them to account if they don't satisfactoraly live up to their election promises. In that way they are accountable.

  4. #184

    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    @LosOjos, the reason we have general (and by-) elections is for that very reason. To hold them to account if they don't satisfactoraly live up to their election promises. In that way they are accountable.
    I just don't think it's enough. Under the current system, $Party could promise to instantly credit every tax payer's account with 100 upon election, then upon being elected immediately say "ooh, sorry, no can do." We then have to wait up to 5 years (variable depending on whether the elected PM wants to hold it earlier or not) before we can do anything about it.

    (I know this is a silly example but I'm trying to not say anything that would single out an individual party)

  5. #185

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    But the manisfesto we elect them on isn't based on one policy. The manisfesto contains a number of policies the party wishes to enact during a term of office (now fixed to 5 years). They need time to break a number of policies before you want to hold them to account or we'll be holding general elections every 6 months.

  6. #186


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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    It's amazing how wrong that actually is. The reason for the referendum was because the Lib-Dems insisted on it as condition to coalition - current system doesn't serve them at all. It's Tory and Labour who constantly vote it down.

    What's interesting about the referendum is it was "post-legislative" meaning had the people turned out and voted for AV, there would have been no choice but to make it happen.

    Parliament won't ever do it of it's own accord because, as you say, it the current system serves Labour and Tory purposes. But it is we, the people, who missed the opportunity if we don't like the existing system.
    but how does pr help its same 3 parties you might get a few more independents or ukip/bnp etc but still 80+% of seats among the big 3 so youre electing the same set of people a different way

  7. #187

    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    But the manisfesto we elect them on isn't based on one policy. The manisfesto contains a number of policies the party wishes to enact during a term of office (now fixed to 5 years). They need time to break a number of policies before you want to hold them to account or we'll be holding general elections every 6 months.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting (though I can see how I can be misunderstood) that failing to deliver one a single promise would be cause for another election, but let's say they made 5 promises on education to be delivered (or at least started) by the end of their first 18 months in office. If by the end of those 18 months they had only managed to start delivering on one or two of those policies, then another election would be held. It's only a mild musing on the idea I admit, I haven't sat down and come up with a manifesto on it or anything, I just think some system should be put in place to hold them accountable to election promises. I know that the general election should do that, but in 5 years a lot of dirt can be thrown in all directions to cover up the failings of a given government during their term.

    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    but how does pr help its same 3 parties you might get a few more independents or ukip/bnp etc but still 80+% of seats among the big 3 so youre electing the same set of people a different way
    Because given a second or even third choice, it would come to light how much support these smaller parties have. They may not immediately win a general election that way, but they'll gain more seats which will give them a bigger influence on parliament and also make their policies more visible; it will would have given the smaller parties a more level playing field.

  8. #188

    SpuffMonkey's Avatar
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  9. 2 Thanks to SpuffMonkey:

    Earthling (7th February 2014), tmcd35 (6th February 2014)

  10. #189

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Sorry to breath life into a thread that quietly slipped away, but saw this on the Beeb this morning and it seemed relevant...

    BBC News - Living Wage is answer to pay squeeze, says Archbishop John Sentamu
    Last edited by tmcd35; 10th February 2014 at 10:49 AM.

  11. #190

    nephilim's Avatar
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    He isn't wrong either. A living wage would be great for many people.

  12. #191


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    I find it absurd that people can agree on a 'living wage' - i.e. the amount of money you need to live.. And then legally declare you're allowed to pay less..

  13. 3 Thanks to Garacesh:

    Earthling (18th February 2014), LosOjos (10th February 2014), nephilim (10th February 2014)

  14. #192

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    I'd be interested in seeing some real figures comparing benefits claims to both National Minimum Wage and The Living Wage. Can/do the unemployed recieve more or less than either of those figures? What effect does Tax credits have on those earning the NMW, does/can it take them over the Living Wage?

  15. #193

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    Having been unemployed for a period of time, I can tell you, at one point I received more than my mrs who was working a full time job (at the time). I was getting close to 1300 a month through JSA, Council tax benefit, housing benefit (DSS).

  16. Thanks to nephilim from:

    mthomas08 (10th February 2014)

  17. #194
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    Here we go again...

  18. #195

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    I have it on record. .. no one spoil it for me!!

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