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General Chat Thread, RIP Nelson Mandela in General; I had the honour of talking to him on a plane from Johannesburg to Durban in 1990. He'd not long ...
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    I had the honour of talking to him on a plane from Johannesburg to Durban in 1990. He'd not long been released from Robben Island and came back into "cattle-class" to say hello. He took time to speak to everyone who wanted to meet him. He had an infectious grin. There were as many whites as blacks who got out of their seats to shake his hand. A truly remarkable gentleman. RIP

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    StevieM (6th December 2013)

  3. #17


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    Quote Originally Posted by elsiegee40 View Post
    This is one of the few occasions where a national and international sense of loss at the passing of an individual is truly justified. He made a difference in his country and to the world.
    He also authorised bombing campaigns which killed hundreds of people including children. Rest in Peace yes, but the man was no saint.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    One of a very small list of people who made a profound and lasting positive impression on the world. RIP

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    Sad day, but inevitable.

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    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    He also authorised bombing campaigns which killed hundreds of people including children. Rest in Peace yes, but the man was no saint.
    You need to look at many other people who became saints. They weren't all in the Francis vein.

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    laserblazer (6th December 2013)

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    He also authorised bombing campaigns which killed hundreds of people including children. Rest in Peace yes, but the man was no saint.
    @creese is probably more knowledgeable on this subject but I thought his crime was not condemning violence, did he have any real clout when it came to saying yes or no?

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    I think he may be a perfect example of "one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist".

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    strawberry (6th December 2013)

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    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserblazer View Post
    @creese is probably more knowledgeable on this subject but I thought his crime was not condemning violence, did he have any real clout when it came to saying yes or no?
    I am by no means an expert on SA. Sometimes you have to fight to gain freedom, sometimes you have to do some awful things to gain freedom. The black South Africans had very little choice, as far as I am concerned. I think we have to look at recent history, Mandela and many South African's of all colours have been very patient and calm in what is still a poor country for many.

    I don't live in S Africa, I would love to. I just help where I can, sponsoring a child, helping with IT and more in a school, helping with an AIDS Orphans project and doing what I can in a small town(ship) and in Lesotho.

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    I just help where I can, sponsoring a child, helping with IT and more in a school, helping with an AIDS Orphans project and doing what I can in a small town(ship) and in Lesotho.
    Very commendable @creese. When I travelled there regularly on business I used to fill a bag with stationery (paper, pencils, rulers etc.) and just pop in to a small school in the bush. The look on the faces of the staff when I'd breeze in, open the bag as say "can you use these?" The kids would all be immaculate in crisp, white shirts all the more amazing when they live in one room rondavels.

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    "One issue that deeply worried me in prison was the false image I unwittingly projected to the outside world; of being regarded as a saint.
    "I never was one, even on the basis of an earthly definition of a saint as a sinner who keeps trying."

    Nelson Mandela

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    Quote Originally Posted by laserblazer View Post
    @creese is probably more knowledgeable on this subject but I thought his crime was not condemning violence, did he have any real clout when it came to saying yes or no?
    He admitted in his biography to signing off on bombings. He was offered early release on condition that he renounced violence, which he refused to do. In his time in the ANC leadership, the ANC tortured and killed large numbers of mostly black people, a favoured method was the famous tyre necklace (Necklacing was a term coined by Winnie Mandela). As president he welcomed President Suharto of Indonesia to SA, giving the murdering scumbag a 21 gun salute.

    I think his stand on "truth and reconciliation" in later life was commendable and he did renounce violence in later life. He probably saved SA from the fate of a bitter civil war and a genocide of the white population. I just find the picture being pained by the media to be as 'photoshopped' as a Vogue magazine cover. I don't think that's helpful, if we are to learn from history then we must deal with the truth as clearly as possible, not some sugar coated version of it. The man was a catalyst for change, but the means he employed left many dead. He was no Gandhi.

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    Netman (6th December 2013)

  16. #27

    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laserblazer View Post
    Very commendable @creese. When I travelled there regularly on business I used to fill a bag with stationery (paper, pencils, rulers etc.) and just pop in to a small school in the bush. The look on the faces of the staff when I'd breeze in, open the bag as say "can you use these?" The kids would all be immaculate in crisp, white shirts all the more amazing when they live in one room rondavels.
    Thank you.

    The reason I keep doing what I do, apart from believing every child deserves an education, is that they are so grateful and humble. On the day I left a class I worked closely with lined up and each one thanked me, formally. I then got a message to be outside at the close of school, they all rushed up and hugged me and thanked me 'properly'. If I didn't have grandchildren I would be out there permanently.

    I went from people who had reason to complain and don't to people who have all they need and more and do nothing but complain.

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    creese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    He admitted in his biography to signing off on bombings. He was offered early release on condition that he renounced violence, which he refused to do. In his time in the ANC leadership, the ANC tortured and killed large numbers of mostly black people, a favoured method was the famous tyre necklace (Necklacing was a term coined by Winnie Mandela). As president he welcomed President Suharto of Indonesia to SA, giving the murdering scumbag a 21 gun salute.

    I think his stand on "truth and reconciliation" in later life was commendable and he did renounce violence in later life. He probably saved SA from the fate of a bitter civil war and a genocide of the white population. I just find the picture being pained by the media to be as 'photoshopped' as a Vogue magazine cover. I don't think that's helpful, if we are to learn from history then we must deal with the truth as clearly as possible, not some sugar coated version of it. The man was a catalyst for change, but the means he employed left many dead. He was no Gandhi.
    Geographically S A is very different to India. It would not be possible to lead a revolution in a similar way to Gandhi. Blacks were moved into areas, some large some small. One, QwaQwa was the Black Capital and is very much still predominately black. A large force of people could have easily been stopped from marching or protesting there and the world would have known nothing of how that was done.

    EDIT: In the 70s I worked on the Moehne Dam Yacht Club. We thought is fun to sing the Dam Busters March on the way to work. Many years later I found out how many thousands died in that raid. Not so funny now, but it could be argued it was for a good reason.
    Last edited by creese; 6th December 2013 at 12:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    He admitted in his biography to signing off on bombings. He was offered early release on condition that he renounced violence, which he refused to do. In his time in the ANC leadership, the ANC tortured and killed large numbers of mostly black people, a favoured method was the famous tyre necklace (Necklacing was a term coined by Winnie Mandela). As president he welcomed President Suharto of Indonesia to SA, giving the murdering scumbag a 21 gun salute.

    I think his stand on "truth and reconciliation" in later life was commendable and he did renounce violence in later life. He probably saved SA from the fate of a bitter civil war and a genocide of the white population. I just find the picture being pained by the media to be as 'photoshopped' as a Vogue magazine cover. I don't think that's helpful, if we are to learn from history then we must deal with the truth as clearly as possible, not some sugar coated version of it. The man was a catalyst for change, but the means he employed left many dead. He was no Gandhi.
    True. However, the methods used varied according to the time. It'd be akin to saying Churchill was a saint or not. There is no monochromatic description for any person on this planet, every life is filled with varying actions, changing views etc...

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    BBC News - Nelson Mandela death: Somerset's part in South African history

    'It was not South Africa that hosted these private peace talks but Mells Park House, some 9,000 miles (14,484 km) away.'

    Best I can get from Mells to the southern coast is 'some' 6,000 miles.



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