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General Chat Thread, He wants to block images online with filters but defends opposition to Page 3 ban ? in General; Originally Posted by LosOjos The real issue here is that, yet again, this government is creating the illusion of "solving" ...
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    gtg93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    The real issue here is that, yet again, this government is creating the illusion of "solving" the problem. The problem isn't that there is porn on the Internet, the problem is that parents aren't educated enough in E-Safety to know how to properly monitor and filter the web for themselves. Education is key, not a blanket ban that can be easily bypassed by any kid willing to spend 5 minutes looking for a proxy. There's also the very, very real possibility that once the infrastructure to ban whatever this government deems as porn is in place, they'll start pushing it further and further until we end up with the BBC and .gov websites and not a fat lot else because "did you know that other Internet users could post topless photos that your kids might look at? Best block all the forums and social networking sites for the safety of our children!"
    Couldn't agree more with this... once you start trying to censor things it's a slippery slope. One persons idea of offensive or "hardcore" can be different to another's, so who has the right to tell that person the sites will/won't be blocked?

    The better option would've been an e-safety campaign with the government offering subscriptions to netnanny (or something similar), that way it's up to parents to choose what their child can and can't view.
    Last edited by gtg93; 27th November 2013 at 12:26 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtg93 View Post
    Couldn't agree more with this... once you start trying to censor things it's a slippery slope. One persons idea of offensive or "hardcore" can be different to another's, so who has the right to tell that person the sites will/won't be blocked?

    The better option would've been an e-safety campaign with the government offering subscriptions to netnanny (or something similar), that way it's up to parents to choose what their child can and can't view.
    I think we can all agree that a gigantic hyper-sexualised picture of a topless teenage girl isn't really appropriate for the third page of the most widely circulated national newspaper, though. There's a big difference between preventing children from having access to porn on the internet (which should be left in the hands of the parents, imo) and selling pornography on the bottom shelf of the newsagents next to actual "news" publications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    I think we can all agree that a gigantic hyper-sexualised picture of a topless teenage girl isn't really appropriate for the third page of the most widely circulated national newspaper, though. There's a big difference between preventing children from having access to porn on the internet (which should be left in the hands of the parents, imo) and selling pornography on the bottom shelf of the newsagents next to actual "news" publications.
    I'm not saying I agree with Page 3 - to be honest, I can't get my head around the reason it's relevant in a NEWSpaper. But, with the newspapers - it's down to the parents whether they allow their children to see these publications. (as it should be with the interweb)

    Though let's be fair, the newspapers that do this tend to just be boobs and celebs, so shouldn't really be classified as such!
    Last edited by gtg93; 27th November 2013 at 12:51 PM.

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    We can argue all day about the rights and wrongs of pin up pictures (Page 3, Pirelli Calendar etc), but they have been around for a very long time now and whether you agree with them or not, it still comes down to parental responsibility to educate their children as to the rights and wrongs of images of this and a much stronger nature.

    I've had this discussion with many people before and what I find interesting is that the very parents that bleat on about the evils of topless models in the papers are the same parents who will sit with their children all day on the beach frequented by topless bathers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryMonkey View Post
    We can argue all day about the rights and wrongs of pin up pictures (Page 3, Pirelli Calendar etc), but they have been around for a very long time now and whether you agree with them or not, it still comes down to parental responsibility to educate their children as to the rights and wrongs of images of this and a much stronger nature.

    I've had this discussion with many people before and what I find interesting is that the very parents that bleat on about the evils of topless models in the papers are the same parents who will sit with their children all day on the beach frequented by topless bathers.
    I'm not a parent, I am a 27 year old single man. Page 3, pinup calendars, wank (lads) mags, all that stuff needs to go. Just because it was acceptable before, doesn't mean it's okay now (look at all the prejudices we've gotten rid of in the past). It's just another aspect of rape culture which we need to do away with if we're ever going to actually start treating women the same as we treat men. These publications encourage young men and boys to think of women as things and not people, posessions to be owned. This is a view which we need to do away with, starting with page 3.

    Case in point: During the 2012 olympics, despite us having female atheletes winning gold medals almost daily, the biggest and most prominent picture of a woman in The Sun each day was (and still is) a teenager with her tits out. People like Jessica Ennis barely even got a look in. What kind of message do you think that sends to young women and girls? Do you really want to raise a daughter in a world where this is the case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    I'm not a parent, I am a 27 year old single man. Page 3, pinup calendars, wank (lads) mags, all that stuff needs to go. Just because it was acceptable before, doesn't mean it's okay now (look at all the prejudices we've gotten rid of in the past). It's just another aspect of rape culture which we need to do away with if we're ever going to actually start treating women the same as we treat men. These publications encourage young men and boys to think of women as things and not people, posessions to be owned. This is a view which we need to do away with, starting with page 3.

    Case in point: During the 2012 olympics, despite us having female atheletes winning gold medals almost daily, the biggest and most prominent picture of a woman in The Sun each day was (and still is) a teenager with her tits out. People like Jessica Ennis barely even got a look in. What kind of message do you think that sends to young women and girls? Do you really want to raise a daughter in a world where this is the case?
    I cant be sure if you are trolling or not.

    Remive the images and remove an aspect of rape culture? Seriously?

    What about 2000 years ago, rape was happening then, hardcore porn or wank mags (as you put it) didnt exist. Same for 1000 years ago, 500 years ago, 50 years ago.

    As for men thinking of women as things. Sorry dont buy it. That usually only happens in a backwards cultural upbringing. I was raised and taught about page 3, i had access to porn as a teen. Do I see my wife or daughter as things i own? No.

    As for the sun. Are you seriously telling me the almost daily 16 page pull out for the olympics, plus the 10-16pages of sports at the back, plus the front covers highlighting gold medal winners from team GB isnt giving enough coverage to the athletes? What planet are you on.


    I dislike the sun for ita journalism, but they are highly passionate about sports for the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    These publications encourage young men and boys to think of women as things and not people, posessions to be owned. This is a view which we need to do away with, starting with page 3
    And by extension most female mags that profess things like "make him do what you want with sex" and other various titles. Those magazines perpetuate the idea that women should use men for sex to get further in life or that sex is a means to an end.

    You also mention the Olympics, so I assume you've not forgotten about the sheer giddiness that overtook most media when Tom Daly stepped out in just his trunks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    I'm not a parent, I am a 27 year old single man. Page 3, pinup calendars, wank (lads) mags, all that stuff needs to go. Just because it was acceptable before, doesn't mean it's okay now (look at all the prejudices we've gotten rid of in the past). It's just another aspect of rape culture which we need to do away with if we're ever going to actually start treating women the same as we treat men. These publications encourage young men and boys to think of women as things and not people, posessions to be owned. This is a view which we need to do away with, starting with page 3.

    Case in point: During the 2012 olympics, despite us having female atheletes winning gold medals almost daily, the biggest and most prominent picture of a woman in The Sun each day was (and still is) a teenager with her tits out. People like Jessica Ennis barely even got a look in. What kind of message do you think that sends to young women and girls? Do you really want to raise a daughter in a world where this is the case?
    I don't think an all out ban is quite the way to go - I agree it sets a bad example to an extent, but for some out there - this is something they enjoy doing as a job, so why take that away from them?

    I also agree that it shouldn't be the main highlight when you open a newspaper/magazine etc - it needs toning down a little (a lot). I'm 20 years old and don't see women as "things" or "posessions to be owned", and I don't think it's images like this that cause people to think that way either, I think it's down to the people they're brought up around (not necessarily parents or close family) and their attitude towards women.

    Again, I think it's down to educating people on the subjects, letting them know what's right and what's wrong. If someone wants to look at pictures of semi-nude models, then as long as the models are happy doing that for a living then why not let them? And I'm not just talking about female models either - although they're not as well published/seen, I'm pretty sure there will be published images of men of a similar orienation.
    Last edited by gtg93; 27th November 2013 at 02:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    I cant be sure if you are trolling or not.
    Nope, I'm not trolling. These are my actual opinions. I don't have time to reply properly to your post right now but i will do shortly. I just wanted to say that my post is not supposed to be an attack on the habits of men everywhere, but a commentary on society. Don't take it so personally.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    I'm more of the opinion that we all need to stop thinking of sex as something dirty that needs to be hidden away like a sin. Its something that healthy views need to be generated about from childhood. As it stands, we spend our lives being told that sex is basically bad. Ok, it isn't as bad as the older times when puritanical views of sex being only for babies were prevalent but we still have major hangups.

    We also need to stop obsessing about body image entirely. We need to focus on health, not image. Photoshop editing of models photos should be banned in all media, male or female, child or adult.

    The porn is a reflection of the demands of the consumer. If people didn't want whatever porn they produced, it wouldn't exist. If people's attitudes to sex changed, so would the availability of, or the desire to see, porn.

    Focusing on filtering or getting rid of boobs in The Sun is nearly the most pointless example of grandstanding for votes that I can think of.

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    Sdrawkcab's Avatar
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    Ok here we go:

    Quote Originally Posted by nephilim View Post
    Remive the images and remove an aspect of rape culture? Seriously?
    Yes.

    What about 2000 years ago, rape was happening then, hardcore porn or wank mags (as you put it) didnt exist. Same for 1000 years ago, 500 years ago, 50 years ago.
    Things change - 2000 years ago we had slavery, homophobia and open racism. The same for 1000 years ago, 500 years ago, 50 years ago. Does that mean they're still okay today? This argument is utterly and totally invalid, sorry.

    As for men thinking of women as things. Sorry dont buy it. That usually only happens in a backwards cultural upbringing. I was raised and taught about page 3, i had access to porn as a teen. Do I see my wife or daughter as things i own? No.
    I don't think anyone conciously thinks like that, I wasn't trying to imply that they do. But seriously, have you heard the way teenagers talk to each other nowadays? Are you aware of things like The Game/"PUA" culture, negging, being "alpha"? These things are extremely damaging, and they definitely revolve around treating women as things - points to be scored, notches on the bedpost, challenges to be conquered. Things like page 3 directly contribute towards this culture by providing validation for these opinions, and by teaching young men that women are objects to be desired, to be tarted up and trotted out for the enjoyment of men.

    Look at the scorn a woman gets for deciding, for example, not to shave her arms/legs. The Sun directly propogates the outmoded idea of gender roles like this through Page 3.

    As for the sun. Are you seriously telling me the almost daily 16 page pull out for the olympics, plus the 10-16pages of sports at the back, plus the front covers highlighting gold medal winners from team GB isnt giving enough coverage to the athletes? What planet are you on.
    I bought the sun every day during the olympics. The biggest and most prominent picture was of a topless woman. Every day, before we even turned to the olympics pull-out section, we were treated to a three-quarter page spread of young Lacey from Essex proudly getting her tits out for the lads. This was never intended to be a criticism of how The Sun reported the olympics, just commentary on the prominence they gave (and still give) to page 3 over actual news.

    JUST TO BE CLEAR: I am not saying we shouldn't have pornography (we shouldn't, but that's a whole different argument which should really be in a different thread). I am saying that we shouldn't have pornography on the third page of the most widely read paper in the UK. A paper which - as I said earlier - is available on the bottom shelf of newsagents everywhere.

    I should also be clear that I don't think removing page 3 from the sun will resolve the entire problem either. We've got a long way to go from there (look at how advertising is targetted towards men and women, for example). It's one step which we need to make down an incredibly long path if we're ever actually gonig to have real gender equality, though.
    Last edited by Sdrawkcab; 27th November 2013 at 03:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gtg93 View Post
    I don't think an all out ban is quite the way to go - I agree it sets a bad example to an extent, but for some out there - this is something they enjoy doing as a job, so why take that away from them?

    I also agree that it shouldn't be the main highlight when you open a newspaper/magazine etc - it needs toning down a little (a lot). I'm 20 years old and don't see women as "things" or "posessions to be owned", and I don't think it's images like this that cause people to think that way either, I think it's down to the people they're brought up around (not necessarily parents or close family) and their attitude towards women.

    Again, I think it's down to educating people on the subjects, letting them know what's right and what's wrong. If someone wants to look at pictures of semi-nude models, then as long as the models are happy doing that for a living then why not let them? And I'm not just talking about female models either - although they're not as well published/seen, I'm pretty sure there will be published images of men of a similar orienation.
    Once again - I'm not criticising glamour modelling/pornography/naked photos. As I said, that's a whole different argument which really doesn't belong here, so it'd be nice if we could stay away from it.

    Naked pictures shouldn't be in our national newspapers. It's as simple as that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    I bought the sun every day during the olympics.
    Why? Surely the first step in addressing the issues you argue should be addressed is to stop paying people to produce the stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    Things change - 2000 years ago we had slavery, homophobia and open racism. The same for 1000 years ago, 500 years ago, 50 years ago. Does that mean they're still okay today? This argument is utterly and totally invalid, sorry.
    Not really - the point he was making is that, way before all this sort of material was being published/made widely available, rape was still a thing (much worse in actual fact), so you can't blame our "rape culture" on these types of publications. So, his point is actually quite valid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    points to be scored, notches on the bedpost, challenges to be conquered
    And, in all genuineness (probably not a word, going with it anyway), I know more women who think/speak in this way than I do men.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    just commentary on the prominence they gave (and still give) to page 3 over actual news
    This is true - If I'm buying a paper, I want to know news - not the bra size of a woman I don't even know, and certainly not anything about the latest celebrity to have a baby with a weird name (but if that's not what you want to see you just buy another paper). As @localzuk says - If we ban it so children don't see it, we're making the whole topic of sex a taboo subject - by allowing it, we're in no way saying that objectifying/raping women is OK.
    Last edited by gtg93; 27th November 2013 at 03:38 PM.

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    I don't get it, takes a simple search on the internet on how to manage what websites your children can view. Even some routers for example like the ASUS DSL-N55U (I have this one) you can set the firewall to block catergories of websites for example adult themes or comments on youtube. With proper research and management you can stop your children from accessing this content. Blocking porn sites is not the answer. Children can get around this very easily look at TPB that got blocked by all UK service providers yet it is still the most used bittorrent site accessed in the UK! David Cameron doesn't have a clue and I say don't mess with something that you don't understand. So now let's take into consideration other inappropriate videos. Fighting, 18+ trailers etc.. Kids aren't stupid when a website asks them for their age and they're looking at a GTA trailer they don't put in their actual age they drop it to 1979 or something. What will he block next.... We're not North Korea.

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