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General Chat Thread, Meh F1. in General; Originally Posted by Ad93 In F1 I believe they need to bring in some form of control parts like they ...
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    plexer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ad93 View Post
    In F1 I believe they need to bring in some form of control parts like they have within touring cars, it increases race excitement and also helps to bring costs down.
    The ecu is one such part currently, I just the article that refers to the "traction control" and seems to be linking the kers with the suspension which is interesting and not aginst the rules with the changes for next year around the engines and kers it will be interesting.

    Ben

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    synaesthesia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    How is that not the case? You said yourself "the car is a masterpiece" and "they have an absolute genius designer", they have superb reliability (in Vettel's case at least!); what other considerations should go into the constructors championship?
    You snipped the first part of that sentence that gives it the full context.

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    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by synaesthesia View Post
    You snipped the first part of that sentence that gives it the full context.
    Only attempting to be neat, not to present anything out of context. However:
    Lets hope the new engines can throw a permanent curveball in Red Bull's direction, because I for one would like to see a Driver's World Championship go to the most deserving Driver, and the Constructors World Championship going to the most deserving constructor. Currently that isn't the case.
    ...doesn't seem to be much different - it's still saying that you don't think the Constructors has gone to the most deserving team, is it not? Earlier in the paragraph you talk about rule-bending and loopholes, but I can't blame a team for making the best of a situation. If they are the only ones clever enough and capable enough to spot and work with said loopholes, shouldn't that deserve reward? If they were doing anything massively against the rules the FIA would have been down on them like a ton of bricks - as they have been in the past.

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    synaesthesia's Avatar
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    I don't mean that at all, sorry if it reads that way. I mean the constructors should be more specific to what the team does, and the drivers for the drivers. One one hand it's a team sport (each team being a complete package which RB certainly have) on the other the biggest part of it is the world driver's championship. It's that latter part which is an apparent issue as some drivers have less to do than others in a very layman way.

    The FIA do not and can not always come down like a ton of bricks on broken rules. Double DRS, blown exhausts, dodgy defusers etc; admitted it wasn't in the spirit of the rules but it wasn't breaking them either. It took them until the next season to do away with them. Those flaws can sometimes work in the sport's favour - Brawn GP did the best job at the start of 2009 and it showed. All the FIA can ever really do is keep tightening the rules. It's a little like what we have do with filtering in schools; sometimes it gets so bad people often look at whitelisting sites rather than blacklisting for that very controlled approach but sometimes it's not always the best. F1 for some, myself included is a technical sport of 2 sides, and as it is one side (constructor) is impeding massively on the driver side. I would love to see racers able to race, whether it's down to technical restriction or relaxation, or team-bloody-orders.
    Let's also not forget about the level of corruption we've seen in the FIA! (Better now than it was obviously - 80s and early 90s was awful. 2007 and 2008 were particularly bad recent periods.

  5. #20

    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    I also would love to see racers being able to race, I am sick of 90% of the race being drivers taking it easy so they don't wear the tires too much, and only actually racing for half a dozen laps out of the sixty.

    How would you score the constructor's if not by race points, then? I agree with the point that (I think) you're making - it's effectively two sports happening at the same time, who's the best driver (can't really tell because of imbalance in cars) and who's the best team (can't really tell because of imbalance in drivers), and each aspect ends up compromised by the other to an extent.

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    plexer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    How would you score the constructor's if not by race points, then?
    Rock, Paper, Scissors?

    Ben

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    I don't really rate Hamilton that much - he reminds me (attitude wise) of Vettle now. Hamilton threw his toys out of the pram when his car couldn't perform and started to have issues with his car (gearbox failures, engine issues, etc) before he moved to Mercedes. And now he's still in the same position as he was last season - minus the excuses about the car/team.

    This season has been a bit meh to be honest - the only person that stood out was Kimmy IMO.
    It's easy to slate Vettle off - he's young, shakable under pressure, and needs a bit of guidance on when to push and when to hold - but the drivers need to push themselves a lot harder, teams need to find ways to push their cars to the limit, exploit the rules to their benefit (al la Red Bull). Inject some determination into themselves for next season. I'm not a fan of the tyre rules, but at least it puts a bit of planning into the race.

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    synaesthesia's Avatar
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    I still rate Hamilton with Senna, mostly because he's either doing a very good job of imitating his mannerisms or is just as naturally talented. He and Alonso are without any shadow of doubt the best two in the current field, both now shining in their own ways in different teams. They all have faults though, being as human as they are, unlike Vettel who switches off the humanity for a lack of respect or caring for anyone including his own team. Not too unlike a certain Schumacher.

    Pirelli are still doing my nut, they keep throwing every excuse at us/the FIA at every opportunity. Paul Hembrey should work for Apple or maybe as an estate agent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    I also would love to see racers being able to race,
    Watch a different sport then.
    I am sick of 90% of the race being drivers taking it easy so they don't wear the tires too much, and only actually racing for half a dozen laps out of the sixty.
    Taking it easy. Right.

    I'm not even a huge fan of F1 any more. I stopped following it regularly when watching coverage started to require paying large sums of money to watch aerodynamic advertising billboards going round a track. 'Taking it easy' is a few tenths, off (say) a 110 second lap time. The difference is ~0.1%. The problem with 'racing ' in F1 is that the cars are so fast and so well matched, that overtaking is all but impossible. It's only via gimmicks like the aero-duct, KERS and tyres that actually wear out, that F1 isn't a procession from beginning to end (with maybe one or two good moves per race at the front of the field). If you want to see drivers racing each other, you probably need to watch lower formulas or even fixed formula stuff. Even better, jack in the Sky sub and spend it on iRacing instead. :-)

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    nephilim's Avatar
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    You want good racing...watch nascar...yes they just tend to do loops, but all cars are equal, same fuel, same engines, same tyre compounds. It is literally a skillful race because of this.

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    plexer's Avatar
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    Skilfull in trying not to fall asleep and drive in to the wall, lol

    Ben

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    Quote Originally Posted by plexer View Post
    Skilfull in trying not to fall asleep and drive in to the wall, lol
    Ovals are underrated as an arena but the reason Europe avoids them is safety. 22 F1 cars on a short 1 mile oval for 220 laps would have audiences wanting more. Of drivers there would, after a few events, probably be a few less!

  13. #28

    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    Watch a different sport then.

    Taking it easy. Right.
    Hard to gain satisfaction from F1 in 2013 - Mark Webber | Red Bull | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN.co.uk
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Webber
    "It is very, very strategic with messages from the pit wall saying 'This is where the tyres are, this is what we are probably capable of doing so can you get us there, please. That is your job, can you please get us to that lap', instead of more pushing the boundaries and having a crack," he said. "You still see the drivers racing like Lewis and I did with three or four laps to go in Bahrain, but we wouldn't race like that on lap seven. You would just be cutting your own wrists and killing the tyres, the stint range and all sorts of stuff.
    How many radio messages have we heard this year telling drivers to back off, get out the dirty air to protect your tyres, back off, we're not racing them, look after the tyres... I forget which race, but at one point Vettel (iirc) was told he could stop going easy on the tyres now and he suddenly found half a second a lap. Perhaps "racing" was the wrong word to use, as they are still racing each other (some of the time), but they're certainly not driving to the best of their ability.

    Why should I have to watch a different sport? Why can't I vent my frustration at one I want to watch?

    (I also have no Sky sub, because I am morally against giving Rupert Murdoch any more money. BBC Highlights is fine by me, though I don't half miss Jake.)

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    rdk
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    I agree its been boring this year, but much as I dislike Vettel I don't see how you could conclude he is anything but a great driver. However, as I would like to see in the Tour de France I would like to see radio messages restricted to safety warnings only - let the drivers judge when to back off, when to try to pass, when to come in to the pits.

    I think its wrong to say RBR exploit loopholes as there is no such thing as a loophole (in my opinion) - there are rules and the cars are either within them or not. But I don't like the way F1 has become simply an aerodynamic formula rather than an engine formula. I'd like to see more variety with a rule for engines along the lines of "3 litres, 150 kg, 100 L of fuel per race" and let the engine companies decide what sort of engine to make within those constraints. The same for the cars - give a weight, a size, safety rules and let the designers compete on different designs. Someone might come up with an idea that is way out there and wins everything, but that happens with RBR anyway. Thinks six wheeled Tyrells, ground effect fans etc. Bring them back!

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    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    This BBC News story today is pretty relevant, actually: BBC Sport - Sebastian Vettel benefited from mid-season tyre rules change

    "Going back to 2012 tyres for sure helped us," Red Bull designer Adrian Newey said.

    "Our car generally gets quite a bit of its benefit in the high-speed corners and the '13 tyres were much more load-sensitive.

    "It was much easier to damage them if you put too much load into them, so we couldn't really use that high-speed benefit on the '13 tyres."
    I'm in two minds about tyres affecting a car's performance - I don't like how important they've been this year, but then if one team can look after their tyres much better (Lotus) than another (Mercedes) then arguably their design is better and they deserve the success. Still, Alonso pitting four times in Spain and still winning, and drivers pitting after 1, 2 laps this weekend is a pretty ridiculous situation.

    (Interesting quote from Button as well on the Spanish Grand Prix: "When we are going around three seconds slower than a GP2 car did in qualifying, and only six seconds quicker than one in GP3 did in the race, there is something wrong. This is the pinnacle of motorsport. We shouldn’t have to drive around as slowly as this to look after tyres.” (Spanish Grand Prix 2013: Ferrari's Fernando Alonso romps to victory on home soil - Telegraph))

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