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General Chat Thread, RANT - Fed up with life here in the UK in General; Originally Posted by CHR1S @ Sdrawkcab you have yet to acknowledge any legitimate instances where this is proven and not ...
  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by CHR1S View Post
    @Sdrawkcab you have yet to acknowledge any legitimate instances where this is proven and not snap judgements as you put it.

    I would be more than happy to tell you many incidents that I have witnessed first had that more than backs up at least my own claims.
    @andyturpie In my experience its not just the cost of the product thats increased. There is your travel costs, parking costs, time, so in reality that item that is 50 more on the highstreet is now 60+ more expensive than buying online. Then there is the other factor with highstreet shopping.... other people .....grrrrr
    @CHR1S - Personally I don't drive so I have no extra outlay there. I'm under a 10 minute walk from our town centre.
    @X-13 Your exactly right - I have a huge range of contacts that either run their own businesses or I am not shy in asking the pertinent questions in a store before making a purchase. I do what ever I can to support local independents before even considering the large corporates. I feel doing this is part of my social duty.

  2. #77
    Sdrawkcab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHR1S View Post
    @Sdrawkcab you have yet to acknowledge any legitimate instances where this is proven and not snap judgements as you put it.

    I would be more than happy to tell you many incidents that I have witnessed first had that more than backs up at least my own claims.
    Because you haven't provided any. Practically everyone on here arguing against me has just said "They definitely do exist, you see them in the street all the time! There's a family over the road from me who live in a council house, I looked in their window and they had a MASSIVE TV and they all had iPads! Disgusting!"

    "Events I have witnessed first hand" is the definition of anecdotal evidence, and you don't win arguments with anecdotes. In your day to day life, you may have seen more of these people than most. However if you actually look at the numbers, they are a miniscule minority.

  3. #78


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    Quote Originally Posted by CHR1S View Post
    @Sdrawkcab you have yet to acknowledge any legitimate instances where this is proven and not snap judgements as you put it.
    I thought the data in the article linked to by @Sdrawkcab acknowledged the existence of such, but the point is that they quantified them as a very small proportion of the welfare bill, somewhat out of proportion of the fuss made over them. I can't see from some of the anecdotes here, how people can actually know enough detail about the incomes of "people in the council house down the road" to make these judgements. What are people doing to get that level of detail; slipping in and opening up their mail?

  4. #79

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Ok, here's a statistic for you.

    There are 370,000 households where no-one in the household has ever worked. Out of around 25m households. That's about 1.5%. Which is far too many. Far, far too many.

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    Because you haven't provided any. Practically everyone on here arguing against me has just said "They definitely do exist, you see them in the street all the time! There's a family over the road from me who live in a council house, I looked in their window and they had a MASSIVE TV and they all had iPads! Disgusting!"
    So you see a house in a council estate - how do you know they haven't bought it? or it's not private rented? I live in a flat in an estate of what where council houses; I'm buying (bloody money pit!).

    You look in the Window and see TV and iPads, nice. Look in mine and you'll see the same.

    So, where the evidence they don't work? Maybe they work nights when your asleep? or have part time jobs? Self employed? Who knows. I certainly have no idea what any of my neighbours get up to during the day. Like I said above, that desciption fits my sisters family; they both work!
    Last edited by tmcd35; 24th October 2013 at 03:45 PM.

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    @Sdrawkcab how about one of the families 3 children singing happy birthday to himself, then hearing the mother (or a loose definition of one) telling him he has one card and no presents. Then hearing the parents row with each other as they blew his birthday money on weed and alcohol. We gave the poor sod 5 and loads of sweets, he was so happy.

    Seeing the same kids dirty, in ripped, undersized clothes day in day out, yet seeing the bin bags full of Oranjeboom cans and a permanent smell of weed?

    How about the massive TVs (yes plural), stereo (which was loud all the time hence the noise complaints), xbox, sky yet they barely left the house to take the kids to school let alone do anything that resembled work. Even the drugs were delivered to the door!

    And thats a sample of one family...

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    Actually, having lived on a council estate myself, and I'm sure others have, you tend to know which are the non-working council tenants, and which aren't.
    The 'scroungers' and 'low-lifes' that people are referring to get a disproportionate amount of fuss because they tend to cause a disproportionate amount of problems. Where I lived, we had three problem families (out of about 30) who were a real problem - they were only 10%-ish of the population of our street, but caused pretty much 90% of the problems.
    And it's not just a cost in benefits; there was the extra policing costs (they were always on our street sorting out various problems), costs in rubbish clearups, social workers, school places they didn't attend...

    The fact is, people tend to object to these families because whilst they may make up a "tiny, tiny" proportion of the benefit cost, they are a direct blight on the neighbourhoods they live in, and on society as a whole.
    Quoting statistics is small comfort to a family that is kept up night after night, or have their car windows put through on a weekly basis (as we did).

  8. Thanks to DPrince from:

    Garacesh (24th October 2013)

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by DPrince View Post
    Actually, having lived on a council estate myself, and I'm sure others have, you tend to know which are the non-working council tenants, and which aren't.
    The 'scroungers' and 'low-lifes' that people are referring to get a disproportionate amount of fuss because they tend to cause a disproportionate amount of problems. Where I lived, we had three problem families (out of about 30) who were a real problem - they were only 10%-ish of the population of our street, but caused pretty much 90% of the problems.
    And it's not just a cost in benefits; there was the extra policing costs (they were always on our street sorting out various problems), costs in rubbish clearups, social workers, school places they didn't attend...

    The fact is, people tend to object to these families because whilst they may make up a "tiny, tiny" proportion of the benefit cost, they are a direct blight on the neighbourhoods they live in, and on society as a whole.
    Quoting statistics is small comfort to a family that is kept up night after night, or have their car windows put through on a weekly basis (as we did).
    Same boat mate, noise complaints, fires, criminal damage..... getting out from there was the best thing ever!

  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPrince View Post
    Actually, having lived on a council estate myself, and I'm sure others have, you tend to know which are the non-working council tenants, and which aren't.
    The 'scroungers' and 'low-lifes' that people are referring to get a disproportionate amount of fuss because they tend to cause a disproportionate amount of problems. Where I lived, we had three problem families (out of about 30) who were a real problem - they were only 10%-ish of the population of our street, but caused pretty much 90% of the problems.
    And it's not just a cost in benefits; there was the extra policing costs (they were always on our street sorting out various problems), costs in rubbish clearups, social workers, school places they didn't attend...

    The fact is, people tend to object to these families because whilst they may make up a "tiny, tiny" proportion of the benefit cost, they are a direct blight on the neighbourhoods they live in, and on society as a whole.
    Quoting statistics is small comfort to a family that is kept up night after night, or have their car windows put through on a weekly basis (as we did).
    BRING BACK WORKHOUSES! That'll teach those uppity poors who's boss!

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    A single mother of two was renting a house and spent around 4,000 doing it up. New wallpaper, painting, new flooring/carpets, stuff like that. She lived there for two years. One day her landlord decided that he wasn't going to renew her tenancy at the end of the lease because he wanted to sell the house. In her spending 4,000 on that house and taking wonderful care of it whilst she and her two children lived there, she'd increased the value by around 15,000. Her and her two sons were forced to move onto a council estate because she couldn't find another house to rent that was within reasonable distance of her job, her youngest sons' school and the eldest sons' college.

    I was that youngest son. Not everybody on a council estate that has nice things is a scrounger, that being said, not everyone on a council estate isn't, either. From my experiences there, I can tell you that @DPrince hit the nail on the head with his post. There were two terrible families on the estate I was on. Absolutely terrible families that I remember having to run from. Which didn't help, because I lived on the same estate. No matter how many police reports we filed, it continued. Disrespect, violence, drugs, alcohol, vandalism, those two families were involved in it all. We'd wake up to our garden filled with empty beer cans from their frequent parties, cigarette and joint butts, almost-empty bags of weed and on one-or-two occasions, almost empty bags of suspicious powder.

    Loud music from their houses or cars. Threats of assault - and a few followed through with, too. And this was the parents! Their children had nice clothes, flashy phones and 'bling' jewellery, but you'd barely ever see them in school. The parents had no jobs. We know this because we communicated with our neighbours, some of them did indeed work nights. The parents never left their house unless it was to go to Asda or the corner shop to buy food, tobacco or alcohol. Their kids were just as dysfunctional. Aggressive, vile children who would hapily let you know how little they thought of you.

    These are the benefit 'scroungers' we all hate. They exist. Yes, they're disproportionately referenced, but only because they cause the disproportionate amount of problems. No, they're not the cause of the economic crisis, but they certainly contribute. I'm not blaming them for the situation I'm in, but I'll be long deep in the ground before I accept somebody saying my animosity towards them is unjustified when they earn more than me for not working and having kids. I haven't had kids. I wouldn't have kids right now because I can't afford them. If I wanted to start a family, right now, I couldn't. They didn't have to worry about it.
    Last edited by Garacesh; 24th October 2013 at 04:06 PM.

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Ok, here's a statistic for you.

    There are 370,000 households where no-one in the household has ever worked. Out of around 25m households. That's about 1.5%. Which is far too many. Far, far too many.
    Would you rather they sleep on the street?

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    Would you rather they sleep on the street?
    Sorry, what? How does my not liking 1.5% of all homes in the UK never having had a job result in wanting them to sleep on the street?

    Working for benefits shouldn't be a problem either... There is a massive amount of public infrastructure that needs maintenance but the country lacks funds to do so whilst paying everyone benefits.

    Obviously, there will always be some households with no workers - due to disabilities etc... and this is absolutely fine. However, this will not equal 1.5% of the population.
    Last edited by localzuk; 24th October 2013 at 04:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    BRING BACK WORKHOUSES! That'll teach those uppity poors who's boss!
    I actually agree to some extent.
    Not the traditional workhouse, but a place when you can work, learn a trade and be paid in housing and food would be great.

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    @Sdrawkcab did you watch this? On Benefits & Proud

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Working for benefits shouldn't be a problem either... There is a massive amount of public infrastructure that needs maintenance but the country lacks funds to do so whilst paying everyone benefits.
    What would that do to the economy? If the government can do infrastructure maintenance using the unemployed then they won't need workers to do that. So you will end up with more unemployed and presumably then you will put them to work on something else - which will pull the rug out from under another market and you will have more unemployed. Sounds like a winning plan.

    A big dent could be put in the welfare bill by raising the minimum wage to pull more working people off benefits - effectively stop subsidising businesses who refuse to pay a living wage in return for labour. Of course, again that might impact the profits of wealthy tax dodgers, so it's probably a non starter. It's always nice to know my taxes are helping McDonalds serve their burgers cheaply.

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