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General Chat Thread, RANT - Fed up with life here in the UK in General; Nobody actually looks at figures when they discuss this, they just reference anecdotal evidence. Look at the facts rather than ...
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    Sdrawkcab's Avatar
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    Nobody actually looks at figures when they discuss this, they just reference anecdotal evidence. Look at the facts rather than spouting hyperbole please. If you read this article, you will see that the vast majority of our benefits actually go to working families, with a tiny tiny proportion going to long-term unemployed people.

    You are making a snap judgement based on the appearance of these people. Many of them probably do have jobs. Besides which, it's not your money. You have absolutely no right to tell them how to spend it.

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  3. #47

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    Nobody actually looks at figures when they discuss this, they just reference anecdotal evidence. Look at the facts rather than spouting hyperbole please. If you read this article, you will see that the vast majority of our benefits actually go to working families, with a tiny tiny proportion going to long-term unemployed people.

    You are making a snap judgement based on the appearance of these people. Many of them probably do have jobs. Besides which, it's not your money. You have absolutely no right to tell them how to spend it.
    IT IS OUR MONEY! Don't be ridiculous. I pay tax. It goes into the pot, and that gets given out to others - something I entirely agree with.

    The fact that percentage-wise, it is a small percentage doesn't matter one bit. It still happens, and it is wrong.

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    Ah the good old race to the bottom. Feeling poor, why not rant at those who are even worse off! It will keep your mind from straying to look at the ever increasing wage gap and how, in these times of austerity - the rich just keep getting ever richer and obviously to motivate the rich we need to ask them to pay less tax so they can key even stinkingly more rich! But obviously to motivate those at the bottom of the heap we need to take what little they have away from them - let them look into the abyss and, well, that ought to make them get one of the huge number of jobs available at every job centre. We simply can't have benefits cheats but hey, tax cheats, welcome to Britain Mr Green and your lovely tax free wife!

    Hate the poorest - truly political genius. It gives the middle classes a target for their frustrations and hey, the poor don't vote Tory anyway! Trebles all round!

  6. #49

    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    IT IS OUR MONEY! Don't be ridiculous. I pay tax. It goes into the pot, and that gets given out to others - something I entirely agree with.

    The fact that percentage-wise, it is a small percentage doesn't matter one bit. It still happens, and it is wrong.
    Of course it is wrong - but it is a really small percentage - much much smaller than the Daily Mail would have you believe. Benefits (at least until the Tories got their hands on them) mostly go to help people who work in low paid jobs or who cannot work full time, make ends meet.
    What about rich people paying less tax? That upsets me more than ANY amount of benefit fraud...
    There will ALWAYS be those to play the system, and as pcstru says, it is almost a "1984"-ish way of making us direct our hatred in a different direction - away from the government.
    Why do people ALWAYS go on about benefit fraud etc when the government spends MILLIONS more of YOUR money on things that I am sure many people would disagree with - foreign aid to corrupt governments with a nuclear program, wars we shouldnt be in, etc etc
    Last edited by witch; 24th October 2013 at 12:43 PM.

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  8. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    IT IS OUR MONEY! Don't be ridiculous. I pay tax. It goes into the pot, and that gets given out to others - something I entirely agree with.

    The fact that percentage-wise, it is a small percentage doesn't matter one bit. It still happens, and it is wrong.
    I think the issue is that it's not as big a problem as the Daily Mail would have us believe. I live above one such "family" who I'd dearly love to see the back off. But the other 200-odd flats/houses up that road might, quiet rightly, have a problem with being called scoungers and chav's.

    I lived in a number of housing estates in some quiet deprived areas (notabley Lowestoft and Dagenham) and yet I can't ever say I've noticed that the freeloader society is as epedemic as some would have us believe.

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    Sdrawkcab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    IT IS OUR MONEY! Don't be ridiculous. I pay tax. It goes into the pot, and that gets given out to others - something I entirely agree with.
    .
    Once it goes into the pot it's not yours any more though, is it? That being said, it's not wrong to get angry about how it's being spent. In this situation, though, your anger is misguided. Benefits are the smallest of our problems, but they're made out to be the biggest because it makes a gripping news story that effectively sells papers. If you want to get angry about mis-appropriation of the tax system, get angry about things like the Vodafone tax bill (or lack of it).

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    salc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    I know what you mean about feeling poor - I am very grateful that my children are adults now and I only have two more years of education costs to help with and then I am done.
    Except that you are never done, you are always a parent and you always want to be able to help them if you can. I have to agree with the above comments about feeling the pinch.

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    From Hansard, 2010 :

    Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much HM Revenue and Customs has spent on advertising for the purposes of preventing tax evasion in each of the last three years. [3776]

    Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs spent £633,284 (excluding VAT) on advertising for the purposes of preventing tax evasion last year. There was no expenditure in the previous two years.

    Katy Clark: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions how much his Department budgeted for advertising tackling benefit fraud in each of the last three financial years. [1035]

    Chris Grayling: The information is in the table:

    Budgeted expenditure for advertising tackling benefit fraud

    2007-08 £6.5 million
    2008-09 £6.0 million
    2009-10 £5.0 million
    "


    Estimates of the tax gap (the gap between what we might expect tax revenues to be and what they actually are) are of amounts from £30billion up to £120 billion. Estimates of benefit fraud in the same period were around £3 billion.

    None of which is to say that Benefit Fraud should be tolerated, but think how often you hear the Daily Mail type ranting "something must be done" about each. Given the amounts involved Tax evasion should have a high priority but it seems all the energy AND funding goes on benefit fraud. Why is that?

    From Welfare fraud is a drop in the ocean compared to tax avoidance | James Ball | Comment is free | theguardian.com

    "
    Joanne Gibbons was sentenced to community service for claiming income support while holding down two paid jobs. Through accumulated payments of £66-a-week, the court heard, she collected £3,140 to which she wasn't entitled.

    Predictably, the Daily Mail is outraged. But here's the strange twist: had Gibbons claimed the benefits to which she was actually entitled, she could have collected £130 a week through family tax credits and child benefit. In total, Gibbons' fraudulent claims cost the taxpayer around £3,100 less than claiming what she was actually entitled to.
    "

    And prosecuting that cost the taxpayer even more money!


    (It is actually good to see attitudes are starting to change - thanks largely to organisations like UK Uncut. Today there is evidence that people are starting to consider tax evasion as socially unacceptable, 10 years ago it hardly rated a mention. It's just a shame that at the highest political levels, so much emphasis is put on cracking down on benefits while so little is done to combat tax evasion. Politicians like the easy targets and we seem happy to let them get away with it).

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    Things are getting harder, and our pay is effectivly cut with years of freezes. However, I have a modest overdraft, a car, TV, a roof over my head, a computer and the internet. I can afford to go to the cinema once a month or so, eat well etc.
    Most of us 'in the middle' are doing quite alright, we have no worries about where our next meal is coming from, or winding up living in a cardboard box.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdrawkcab View Post
    Once it goes into the pot it's not yours any more though, is it? That being said, it's not wrong to get angry about how it's being spent. In this situation, though, your anger is misguided. Benefits are the smallest of our problems, but they're made out to be the biggest because it makes a gripping news story that effectively sells papers. If you want to get angry about mis-appropriation of the tax system, get angry about things like the Vodafone tax bill (or lack of it).
    Financial wrongdoing should be stopped wherever it is, be it benefit cheats/laziness or corporate tax avoidance (I'm a fan of taxing revenue in country of purchase origin rather than profit).

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    It really isn't a minority and it is frustrating. Certainly in the area I live, I see these people with 3/4 kids living in a council house that would cost upwards of £300k and they're renting it for the price of a studio flat. The kids have a blackberry/iphone/expensive clothes and there's a massive 60inch flat screen in the living room with sky. Me and my Mrs cant even get a mortgage for anything with more than 1 bedroom, the thought of having a house and family seems completely unachievable. I don't know anyone my age with a house that hasn't had help from their parents, something that I'm not going to get.

    I can only see it getting worse and more people ending up living off benefits and living above their means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Financial wrongdoing should be stopped wherever it is, be it benefit cheats/laziness or corporate tax avoidance (I'm a fan of taxing revenue in country of purchase origin rather than profit).
    to argue devils advocate about amazon/vodaphone etc's tax bill. If the system allows them to pay very little why shouldnt they? its not their problem thats the govenments fault for having a system that allows them legally to pay naff all. As im sure we all want to pay the minimum tax we can so do companies. Now there is an argument that their lobyists get the tax system altered in their favour but thats a separate issue imo

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    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by APMerry View Post
    It really isn't a minority and it is frustrating. .
    It really is, you know, even if they all live near you.
    Trust me, with three children who have little hope of affording anywhere to live in the near future, I do understand where you are coming from. I am in favour of a benefit system done by vouchers for food etc where you have to prove who you are (so they cant be sold on) as some countries have.

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    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    to argue devils advocate about amazon/vodaphone etc's tax bill. If the system allows them to pay very little why shouldnt they? its not their problem thats the govenments fault for having a system that allows them legally to pay naff all. As im sure we all want to pay the minimum tax we can so do companies. Now there is an argument that their lobyists get the tax system altered in their favour but thats a separate issue imo
    Absolutely - I can't stand all this moralising carp handed out to people like Jimmy Carr. Most of us would pay less tax if we could - this is why governments are always trumpeting tax cuts whilst increasing hidden taxes - so sneering at people who find legal loopholes is silly.
    It is up to the government to STOP this from happening

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    It really is, you know, even if they all live near you.
    Trust me, with three children who have little hope of affording anywhere to live in the near future, I do understand where you are coming from. I am in favour of a benefit system done by vouchers for food etc where you have to prove who you are (so they cant be sold on) as some countries have.
    or even with online deleveries send them the food direct they go to www.govfood.com (or similar) and fill their basket up to £x thats it they never see anything like money and can only buy food/anything else deemed appropriate

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