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General Chat Thread, Trouble down the track for HS2? in General; Rather than spend billions of pounds on this project, all they need to do is establish a good standard of ...
  1. #16

    glennda's Avatar
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    Rather than spend billions of pounds on this project, all they need to do is establish a good standard of internet connection of these trains. Businessmen from the north could then spend the extra time on the train and it being productive rather than sitting around.

    the ability to connect to the internet on the trains is probably greater than the requirement for getting to London quick.

    As I heard quoted the other day "If you want to get there 20 mins earlier, leave 20 mins earlier"

  2. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda View Post
    Rather than spend billions of pounds on this project, all they need to do is establish a good standard of internet connection of these trains. Businessmen from the north could then spend the extra time on the train and it being productive rather than sitting around.

    the ability to connect to the internet on the trains is probably greater than the requirement for getting to London quick.

    As I heard quoted the other day "If you want to get there 20 mins earlier, leave 20 mins earlier"
    How would internet connectivity improve capacity? How does leaving 20 minutes early help if the route is a mess because of a slow moving freight train?

  3. #18

    glennda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    How would internet connectivity improve capacity? How does leaving 20 minutes early help if the route is a mess because of a slow moving freight train?
    It wouldn't improve capacity - don't get me wrong that needs to be addressed, but that is not the main reason for HS2. The busiest routes in England are no were near HS2 (Bristol London line etc). HS2 is designed to get people from the North to London quicker. If businessmen can keep on working while getting to London via the Internet then the additional time it takes is not an inconvenience, they could leave the office an hour earlier and still be able to do everything they can while sitting in there office.

    For general public it isn't going to help much, but again HS2 isn't be targeted towards them its for business.

  4. #19

    LosOjos's Avatar
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    Something I've been wondering - how much is it going to cost to catch this new super train? As @Dos_Box pointed out earlier, train prices from the North to South are comparable to air fare already, if they're going to charge a premium on top of those fares for the "privilege" of the faster journey via HS2, I can't see many using it.

  5. #20
    CAM
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennda View Post
    It wouldn't improve capacity - don't get me wrong that needs to be addressed, but that is not the main reason for HS2. The busiest routes in England are no were near HS2 (Bristol London line etc). HS2 is designed to get people from the North to London quicker. If businessmen can keep on working while getting to London via the Internet then the additional time it takes is not an inconvenience, they could leave the office an hour earlier and still be able to do everything they can while sitting in there office.

    For general public it isn't going to help much, but again HS2 isn't be targeted towards them its for business.
    But trains already have Internet access. You can either pay for it, use certain Wi-Fi deals with your telco provider or upgrade to First Class. Virgin Pendolinos are pretty good at this as I had a free upgrade once whilst heading to EduConf. If a business has sufficient remote access and smart enough to book ahead for a seat reservation then they can use it like an office.

    Now, in the south it is a different story as Sussex, Kent and Surrey are all metro services instead of long distance (even on the Brighton line). But HS2 style lines won't help there anyway as it is a different world.

  6. #21

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Something I've been wondering - how much is it going to cost to catch this new super train? As @Dos_Box pointed out earlier, train prices from the North to South are comparable to air fare already, if they're going to charge a premium on top of those fares for the "privilege" of the faster journey via HS2, I can't see many using it.
    This will be solved... with air fare taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    This will be solved... with air fare taxes.
    "Solved" is such a subjective word

    The problem is that trains are overpriced and unreliable. Now, a new track allowing more capacity may well improve their reliability, but it's also likely to increase cost, which in turn will mean less passengers. It all just seems like an awful solution to me.

    I know that the cost involved in increasing the loading gauge would be astronomical but if it was done on a rolling basis over say 10 years (just for the existing tracks along the proposed HS2 route), surely that'd be a much better solution? HS2 feels like a "quick fix" (relatively speaking) to a problem much too large to deal with so "easily" (again, relatively speaking)

  8. #23

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    "Solved" is such a subjective word

    The problem is that trains are overpriced and unreliable. Now, a new track allowing more capacity may well improve their reliability, but it's also likely to increase cost, which in turn will mean less passengers. It all just seems like an awful solution to me.

    I know that the cost involved in increasing the loading gauge would be astronomical but if it was done on a rolling basis over say 10 years (just for the existing tracks along the proposed HS2 route), surely that'd be a much better solution? HS2 feels like a "quick fix" (relatively speaking) to a problem much too large to deal with so "easily" (again, relatively speaking)
    There are no existing tracks on the HS2 route I thought? Its a brand new route.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    There are no existing tracks on the HS2 route I thought? Its a brand new route.
    I thought it was just a Birmingham to London straight through to start with?

  10. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    I thought it was just a Birmingham to London straight through to start with?
    Still a new route though. It isn't going over the top of existing tracks. It has miles of new tunnels, bridges, cuttings etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Still a new route though. It isn't going over the top of existing tracks. It has miles of new tunnels, bridges, cuttings etc...
    Yeah but that was kind of my point - rather than spending billions laying a new track, spend a bit more time and money increasing the loading gauge of the existing track from London to Manchester (through Birmingham)

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    If you are going to go down the route of enhancing the loading gauge, then you may as well go the full distance and implement the Western USA gauge. True double decker and enhanced width.

    Of course this would mean having to expand a 4 track mainline by about 12 foot sideways, of which would require nearby properties to be bulldozed and bridges and tunnels modified for starters.

  13. #28

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LosOjos View Post
    Yeah but that was kind of my point - rather than spending billions laying a new track, spend a bit more time and money increasing the loading gauge of the existing track from London to Manchester (through Birmingham)
    That'd cost a heck of a lot. The routes are heavily built up around existing lines. Not to mention, there are numerous 'historic' bridges and the like, which wouldn't legally be allowed to be touched, so the lines would have to be redirected at those points to new routes with new bridges/tunnels.

    Not to mention the disruption to the busiest route on the rail network.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by superatticman View Post
    If you are going to go down the route of enhancing the loading gauge, then you may as well go the full distance and implement the Western USA gauge. True double decker and enhanced width.

    Of course this would mean having to expand a 4 track mainline by about 12 foot sideways, of which would require nearby properties to be bulldozed and bridges and tunnels modified for starters.
    Like I said, not quick or cheap, but increasing the gauge enough to allow for European style double decker trains would surely be a better option in the long run?

    EDIT: OK hadn't considered the historic buildings problem. Surely something better than ploughing through the countryside with a new track could be done though. How about looking at using the canals again for freight?
    Last edited by LosOjos; 10th September 2013 at 03:20 PM.

  15. #30
    zag
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    I've recently had my local train station redeveloped and it needed 2 new small viaducts about a mile down the tracks.

    The total cost was over 1 billion pounds and it took 4 years!! Hopefully that shows you just how much it costs to upgrade existing lines!!

    HS2 is a far cheaper option. 50 billion over 20 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things.



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