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General Chat Thread, Gove at it again in General; this is worth a watch Gove Versus Reality - YouTube...
  1. #46


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    this is worth a watch
    Gove Versus Reality - YouTube

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    Ephelyon's Avatar
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    It's a good video and raises some good questions.

    I also like this one:

    BBC Breakfast: Michael Gove on axing crap school teachers (13Jan12) - YouTube

    Particularly at the end... it's quite an interesting exposť of Gove's logic from the horse's mouth.

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ephelyon View Post
    It's a good video and raises some good questions.

    I also like this one:

    BBC Breakfast: Michael Gove on axing crap school teachers (13Jan12) - YouTube

    Particularly at the end... it's quite an interesting exposť of Gove's logic from the horse's mouth.
    So basically, he seems to think that teachers should also be social workers and quite simply, magicians. What he is saying that teachers who have a poor term should be sacked. So, should we also apply this concept to his job then? If the results in education don't improve in a single term, he should be sacked?

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    ZeroHour (7th July 2013)

  5. #49

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    Interestingly, that was one of the comments on the video :P

    Listen again. He is not saying they should be; he is allowing HTs the freedom to decide whether or not they should be. Presently it has to take at least a year or something, and doesn't it seem strange that if a teacher's classes are making little progress, it has to be at least that long before action can be taken?

    But the most interesting part is the questions he raises at the end and the interviewer's response. Nobody ever seems to want to engage with Gove when he talks about things like that!

    Just food for thought.

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    He isn't giving the heads that flexibility though. He also says that if a head teacher isn't doing this then they are a bad head teacher...

    The questions at the end are very carefully crafted. They make out that if you don't support his changes, then you are happy for children to fail, but that isn't what is up for discussion with him. The question is, are teachers solely to blame if a child doesn't make progress in a term? His answer is yes, and if the head allows it then they'll end up out too...
    Last edited by localzuk; 7th July 2013 at 02:48 PM.

  7. #51

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    Agreed, both his questions and the interviewer's are crafted in the manner you'd expect for this kind of interview.

    But I think the issue for debate that Gove is raising centres around the question of this perennial "good teacher".

    What is a "good teacher"? Gove's answer is that a truly good teacher is someone who can always get the best out of any pupils they are presented with (and I can think of worse definitions). He then seems to say, almost philosophically, "Wouldn't it be nice if that were the standard and became the norm?"

    A similar debate has been raised on EduGeek before about the standards (or lack thereof with the exception of FITS) for our own profession. We're expected to do the impossible a lot of the time by literally knowing everything about IT, but wouldn't it be nice if we could have the kind of training and career pathway framework that actually promoted that as far as possible? Coupled with standards for accountability as well, real change could be achieved. It creates both a mechanism and a context for improvement.

    But then the issue is raised of whether this could be used as a stick to beat us with, and we are back to the start again. Essentially I think the above is what Gove wants for teachers, and the stick-beating argument is being raised by the interviewers (and many teachers) as well. Ultimately it will always depend on the implementation, but I don't think the idea alone of having those standards is a bad one in principle.
    Last edited by Ephelyon; 7th July 2013 at 04:26 PM.

  8. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Thing is, that argument falls flat on its face when you compare it to the other policies this government introduced into the education sector. Such as unqualified teachers being allowed in free schools and academies.

    So, on one hand they're saying the army of 'cheap labour' are unqualified to teach and don't help anyone, but on the other hand they're saying unqualified people are ok to teach kids.
    Prep and public schools also allow 'unqualified' teachers. All 'unqualified' means is they don't have a PGCE. Doesn't mean they can't do the job or they aren't educated.

    As far as I'm concerned, TAs are worth every penny they get paid. The job they do is important from an 'SEN' stand point but also from a 'letting the teacher teach' standpoint. Examples of this would be if you have a disruptive child in a class. If there's no TA, that disruptive child can knock a good 10 minutes from a lesson's teaching time. If there is a TA, that TA can deal with it, reducing the disruption to teaching.
    Depends on the school environment. If the TA is dealing with that sort of issue, fine. I think Gove's concern is that they aren't dealing with that, and they're taking on half or whole classes.

    The idea of 'inclusive' education is the problem in my mind. If a child has specialist needs, they should be taught in a specialist environment. The idea that they can be 'fixed' by putting them in a normal school is nonsense, and has been shown by a complete lack of improvement by including them in mainstream schools. Its damaging to the children in question, and to those around them, as more effort is put into them than the mainstream children.
    Inclusion is an article of faith now, and if you oppose it then you're basically an evil racialist disabled-hater.

  9. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post
    Prep and public schools also allow 'unqualified' teachers. All 'unqualified' means is they don't have a PGCE. Doesn't mean they can't do the job or they aren't educated.
    So why is that different to a TA?

    Depends on the school environment. If the TA is dealing with that sort of issue, fine. I think Gove's concern is that they aren't dealing with that, and they're taking on half or whole classes.
    As I said, the rules allow this now. If he doesn't want unqualified people taking classes, he should make it so that they're not allowed to. He can't have it both ways.

    Inclusion is an article of faith now, and if you oppose it then you're basically an evil racialist disabled-hater.
    Yep. Which is preposterous.

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