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General Chat Thread, Woolwich Attack in General; Originally Posted by LiamH Those leaders of the cult don't claim to be immortal super-beings who can read your mind, ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    Those leaders of the cult don't claim to be immortal super-beings who can read your mind, I admit it would be next to impossible to eradicate organized religion in a instant like the a fore mentioned attempts, thats why i said i hope humanity grows out of religion.
    I hope it doesn't. The reason I hope it doesn't is that if it does then it's grown in to a far more efficient means of social control.


    They were also by, and form a man with a mustache. Religion has a vast and horrendous history of persecution of religious people, often encouraged and ordered by the head of the religion, does your opinion of what the bible means supersede that of popes?
    Yes, yes, I recognise that you think religion makes people do bad stuff. My point is that I think that the actions of the people were dictated not by the religion but by the nature of the people themselves. I think that some people would do bad things regardless, and some good things regardless. Religion is no more and no less than a tool and it is how that tool is wielded that matters, not the existence of the tool itself.

    I would strong disagree with that, I'm not religious or overly patriotic and i wouldn't wish harm on anyone, or refuse to help anyone in need. If that's your view on humanity i'm sorry that it is so bleak
    Wouldn't you? What if someone cut up your mum with an axe? Would you wish harm on them then? What if you had a daughter to feed and were nearly out of food and someone came to you and asked you for your last bit of food? Would you refuse to help them or let your daughter starve? Would you kill to feed your family?

    Is it bleak to recognise the feral nature of the animal beneath the civilised exterior? Three meals away from anarchy, as the saying goes. It's only when you realise that it's there that you can learn to contain it.
    Last edited by Flatpackhamster; 23rd May 2013 at 02:56 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post


    Yes, yes, I recognise that you think religion makes people do bad stuff. My point is that I think that the actions of the people were dictated not by the religion but by the nature of the people themselves. I think that some people would do bad things regardless, and some good things regardless. Religion is no more and no less than a tool and it is how that tool is wielded that matters, not the existence of the tool itself.
    I never said religion makes people bad, not sure where that came from. What i am saying is religion gives people a platform commit these acts, support for committing them (all be it from the minority).

    Religion is a tool, I agree, but when that tool is used to brainwash people into suicide bombing, hate preaching and committing genocide we need to take it seriously and try to combat these tactics. The only way to do that is with discussion and education.


    Wouldn't you? What if someone cut up your mum with an axe? Would you wish harm on them then? What if you had a daughter to feed and were nearly out of food and someone came to you and asked you for your last bit of food? Would you refuse to help them and let your daughter starve? Would you kill to feed your family?

    Is it bleak to recognise the feral nature of the animal beneath the civilised exterior? Three meals away from anarchy, as the saying goes. It's only when you realise that it's there that you can learn to contain it.
    If something tragic like that happened i would be angry, i may think that they deserve more than the punishment handed out by the courts. If you are asking if i would go murder his mother in retaliation? no! It feels like if that's your mind set then without any god fearing you would be a very immoral person, keep the faith please :S

    The food question, well i could try help as much as i could, give them half ect. The only reason this scenario would happen is some post apocalyptic world (properly caused by a religious war!) where society has collapsed and religion will be just as useless.

    You have a very bleak view on humanity, and a very weak view of human compassion and resilience.

    Anyway, enough of this, our thoughts should be with the victim and his family, not some never ending debate that will just spiral down hill.
    Last edited by LiamH; 23rd May 2013 at 03:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LiamH View Post
    If something tragic like that happened i would be angry, i may think that they deserve more than the punishment handed out by the courts. If you are asking if i would go murder his mother in retaliation? no! It feels like if that's your mind set then without any god fearing you would be a very immoral person, keep the faith please :S
    I wasn't suggesting you'd murder his mother in retaliation. I'm asking you if you'd 'wish harm' on someone who did something wicked to someone you loved (which was the exact phrase you used). And you've pretty much said that you would 'wish harm' on them.

    My point is - you don't know what you're capable of until you're put under pressure, and the cosy little first-world lives we lead mean we will almost certainly never have to find out. How lucky we all are.


    The food question, well i could try help as much as i could, give them half ect. The only reason this scenario would happen is some post apocalyptic world (properly caused by a religious war!) where society has collapsed and religion will be just as useless.
    Have you got children? Serious question. Because before my girl turned up I felt much the same as you. Now, I'd shank them and cook them to feed her. And she wouldn't be allowed to leave the table until she'd finished her delicious homo sapiens avec un sauce pommade et tuile verite.

    You have a very bleak view on humanity, and a very weak view of human compassion and resilience.
    There's nothing bleak about my view at all. I recognise the capacity for kindness and decency but I also recognise that most of it is an artifice created by a time of essentially limitless resources. Roll back to a time of hunger and you'll soon see what happens to that compassion and resilience.

    And yes, I am an atheist, and yes, you're lucky aren't a neighbour when the apocalypse comes.
    Last edited by Flatpackhamster; 23rd May 2013 at 03:18 PM.

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    Woolwich attack: Lee Rigby named as victim « BBC News

    The soldier killed in an attack in London has been named as Drummer Lee Rigby of the 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers.

    Drummer Rigby, 25, from Manchester, leaves behind a two-year-old son.

    Two suspects shot by police after Wednesday's attack in Woolwich remain under arrest. A further two people have been arrested on conspiracy to murder.

    The suspects, one of whom is said to be Islamist protester Michael Adebolajo, were known to security services.

    Scotland Yard said the latest arrests were of a man and woman, both aged 29.

    Drummer Rigby's family issued a statement on Thursday, saying: "Lee was lovely. He would do anything for anybody, he always looked after his sisters and always protected them. He took a 'big brother' role with everyone.

    "All he wanted to do from when he was a little boy, was be in the Army.

    "He wanted to live life and enjoy himself. His family meant everything to him. He was a loving son, husband, father, brother, and uncle, and a friend to many."

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    Woolwich attack: This echo chamber of mass hysteria only aids terrorists « The Guardian

    Perpetrators of violent acts of terror thrive on publicity – so politicians and the media need to stop giving it to them
    The first question in any war – terrorism is allegedly a war – is to ask what the enemy most wants you to do. The Woolwich killers wanted publicity for their crime, available nowadays at the click of a mobile phone. They got it in buckets. Any incident is now transmitted instantly round the globe by the nearest "citizen journalist". The deranged of all causes and continents can step on stage and enjoy the freedom of cyberspace. Kill someone in the street and an obliging passerby will transmit the "message" to millions. The police, who have all but deserted the rougher parts of London, will grant you a full quarter hour for your press conference.

    There is little a modern government can do to stem the initial publicity that terrorism craves. But it has considerable control over the subsequent response. When the Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, pleaded for calm and for London to continue as normal, he was spitting into a hurricane. Terror could not have begged for more sensational attention than was granted it by Britain's political community and media.

    The killers commanded the news agenda. Front pages became their platform, authenticating their manifesto with blaring headlines. The prime minister obediently raced home from important business in Paris. He slavishly "cleared his diary", plunged into his favourite Cobra bunker and summoned the mightiest in the land to "co-ordinate a response." Had the youths merely shot a soldier, I doubt if Cameron would have snapped so quickly into line. It was the medieval crudity of the weaponry, the brazen hacking and stabbing and blood splashed over the internet that had every politician homing in on Cobra, press officers in tow. Tabloid terror invited tabloid government.

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    Very interesting article relating to Islam fundamentalists:
    BBC News - Viewpoint: What do radical Islamists actually believe in?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur View Post
    There is little a modern government can do to stem the initial publicity that terrorism craves. But it has considerable control over the subsequent response. When the Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, pleaded for calm and for London to continue as normal, he was spitting into a hurricane. Terror could not have begged for more sensational attention than was granted it by Britain's political community and media.

    The killers commanded the news agenda. Front pages became their platform, authenticating their manifesto with blaring headlines. The prime minister obediently raced home from important business in Paris. He slavishly "cleared his diary", plunged into his favourite Cobra bunker and summoned the mightiest in the land to "co-ordinate a response." Had the youths merely shot a soldier, I doubt if Cameron would have snapped so quickly into line. It was the medieval crudity of the weaponry, the brazen hacking and stabbing and blood splashed over the internet that had every politician homing in on Cobra, press officers in tow. Tabloid terror invited tabloid government.
    Precisely what I was trying to say! And the news since has backed up (2 lone individuals, not linked to any cell, already known as such by MI5). Just as bad as news of right wing extremists rallying in Woolwich that night.

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    Perpetrators of violent acts of terror thrive on publicity – so politicians and the media need to stop giving it to them

    couldn't put it better myself.
    My regiment lost a fine drummer yesterday, known to many at our TA unit including myself. Normally I would go on to post some thoughts in the hope our government might actually do something about it. But today I just don't feel like it.


    Here's the link to my unit's book of condolences.....

    http://www.boards2go.com/boards/board.cgi?user=lanfus
    Last edited by DT2; 24th May 2013 at 03:43 PM.

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    French soldier stabbed in the neck while on patrol near Paris « Reuters

    A French soldier patrolling a business neighborhood west of Paris was stabbed in the neck and injured on Saturday by a man who fled the scene and is being sought by police, President Francois Hollande said.

    The 23-year-old was patrolling in uniform with two other soldiers as part of France's Vigipirate anti-terror surveillance plan when he was approached from behind around 6 p.m. and attacked with a knife or a box-cutter.

    A police union spokesman said surveillance footage of the attacker showed him as tall and bearded, aged about 35, possibly of North African origin and wearing a white Arab-style tunic.

    Hollande, in the Ethiopian city of Addis Ababa, commented on the stabbing to say police were hunting for the attacker but did not provide any details about his identity or any possible motivation for the attack.

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