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General Chat Thread, Question for religious folk in General; X-13 Good question, poor first part answer but its nearly home time "The scriptures caution us that if we rely ...
  1. #121
    E_G_R2's Avatar
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    X-13

    Good question, poor first part answer but its nearly home time

    "The scriptures caution us that if we rely upon signs and wonders, we will be
    seduced by the Devil himself. In this respect, the Bible warns us that the
    Anti-Christ can also perform miracles, and that "Satan himself masquerades as
    an angel of light"
    (2 Cor 11:14 NIV). Even the Lord himself foretold that:
    "false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and
    miracles to deceive even the elect..."
    (Matt 24:24 NIV)."

    I beleive that we would know even though his desciples failed to recognise him after the resurection.

    BTW NIV=New Internetional Version of the Bible
    Last edited by E_G_R2; 22nd May 2013 at 04:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willott View Post
    Where did the definition of Marriage come from in the first place? Sunday trading laws, although partly about the Christian's traditional church attendance day is also to do with the idea of a traditional working week, and keeping time available for people to relax and not have to work - would you like schools to be in on Saturday and Sunday as well, just rotating staff? Fish Friday - yep, that's Catholic, but most places serve other stuff as well... and I'l sure if I checked with my father-in-law (Professor of Metabolic Physiology) he'd suggest that having fish as part of your diet is a good thing.
    isnt marriage when you go back enough about property making the bride the husbands property?

  3. #123
    ozydave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    I can't remember who said it, but something to the effect of 'If God cannot stop these events, he is not all-powerful. If he can, but chooses not to, he is apathetic to our suffering. If he causes them himself, he is malevolent. Either way, he is not worthy of worship.'
    Epicurus is the chap your after. His statement sums up everything you need to know about religion

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  5. #124

    SpuffMonkey's Avatar
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    Personally - I think that agnosticism is the only logical stance to take - there can be no proof (or disproof) of deities in any meaningful way - so it makes sense to take that on the chin and get on with our lives, mostly following the idea of "do as you would be done by" which seems to cover most of the sensible bits of religious direction..

  6. #125
    ozydave's Avatar
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    If god did exist he is a bumbling fool. The eye is often held up as a perfect 'design'. It is self evident that it is not a perfect design. Who in their right mind would design something that is upside down, backward and has blind spots. Then rely on the photoshop like software of the brain to correct and interpret the signals. And why give far more potent optics to a lowly creature such as an owl or hawk

  7. #126

    teejay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozydave View Post
    If god did exist he is a bumbling fool. The eye is often held up as a perfect 'design'. It is self evident that it is not a perfect design. Who in their right mind would design something that is upside down, backward and has blind spots. Then rely on the photoshop like software of the brain to correct and interpret the signals. And why give far more potent optics to a lowly creature such as an owl or hawk
    Because God has as sense of humour, if you don't believe me, look between your legs

  8. #127


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    Quote Originally Posted by soveryapt View Post
    We're all in this world together, and (at the risk of sounding like a complete hippy) we are all different and just need to accept that and be at peace with that. They say the biggest cause of grief in the world stems from religion, no, it stems from the misinterpretation of religion. I'm not sure there is a single religion out there that states "in order to make these people believe, you must kill yourself and take out as many people as you can whilst doing it" - this is where religion is used as a tool to guilt people, and it comes back to the same thing, it's not the way we should live, with or without religion.
    The problem here is the paradox of being tolerant of intolerance. You might say it's a misinterpretation of religion that X is nasty to/discriminates against Y, but that's just you! I see Christians discriminating against women (no women priests etc - which bars them from the house of lords where they influence the law of the land). I see Christians discriminating against homosexuals - quoting new testament passages to support their position, and 'demanding' that I 'respect' their views. The best claims for Christianity seem to be that it's offers a good guide to leading some kind of 'good'/'ethical' life - but it seems the churches are rather tardy to come out against discrimination or outright evil. Slavery anyone? Genocide? The struggle for individual rights, equality, access to knowledge has seen organised religion at the forefront of repressing 'progress'. How then can it be such a great guide to living a decent life and just why should I 'respect' such a thing?

  9. #128


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    Quote Originally Posted by pcstru View Post
    The problem here is the paradox of being tolerant of intolerance. You might say it's a misinterpretation of religion that X is nasty to/discriminates against Y, but that's just you! I see Christians discriminating against women (no women priests etc - which bars them from the house of lords where they influence the law of the land). I see Christians discriminating against homosexuals - quoting new testament passages to support their position, and 'demanding' that I 'respect' their views. The best claims for Christianity seem to be that it's offers a good guide to leading some kind of 'good'/'ethical' life - but it seems the churches are rather tardy to come out against discrimination or outright evil. Slavery anyone? Genocide? The struggle for individual rights, equality, access to knowledge has seen organised religion at the forefront of repressing 'progress'. How then can it be such a great guide to living a decent life and just why should I 'respect' such a thing?
    there is a difference between the religion and the institution. i suspect most church goers dont give 2 hoots about gay marriage or women priests. the people in charge on the other hand do but i suspect its more enlighten self interest (less competition for high jobs and they dont want a reputation for rocking the boat)

  10. #129
    ozydave's Avatar
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    Can omniscient God who,
    Knows the future find,
    The omnipotence to,
    Change His future mind?

  11. #130


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    Quote Originally Posted by SpuffMonkey View Post
    Personally - I think that agnosticism is the only logical stance to take
    That's a curious view of logic.
    - there can be no proof (or disproof) of deities in any meaningful way - so it makes sense to take that on the chin and get on with our lives, mostly following the idea of "do as you would be done by" which seems to cover most of the sensible bits of religious direction..
    Logic doesn't care about which axioms you choose. If your belief was that sinners are evil, can corrupt the innocent or (worse) other believers and be sent to god ASAP for judgement, then it would be logical to kill them. Theologians used pretty much that train of 'logic' to justify burning witches and other heretics. Logic is just a mathematical system of evaluating the truth of something but relies on axiomatic truths - which are the 'belief'.

    Being 'agnostic' is like pascals wager. The flaw is making assumptions about god/gods. Pascal posits that he might as well believe in god because if god doesn't exist his belief costs nothing and if god does exist, his belief then saves him from eternal damnation. OK, but that assumes he chose the *right* god to believe in. Perhaps believing in god X will make god Y very very angry indeed.
    Last edited by pcstru; 22nd May 2013 at 08:03 PM. Reason: spelling (not of the witching kind)

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  13. #131
    ozydave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ht6 View Post
    I believe that science and faith go hand in hand. I think that God is the who, the what, and the why. And science is the how it all fits together.
    Science and religion are diametrical opposed. I am confident that Galileo would also have something to say as well. Through the ages religion has stifled advancements in science. As science makes new breakthroughs and discoveries its interesting to watch how the religious twist / turn and interpret their scriptures to fit the now known facts.

  14. #132


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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    there is a difference between the religion and the institution.
    I struggle to get what you might mean by that. It is either so trivially tautologous as to be meaningless or it is just plain wrong. Obviously they are different words so there is a difference (trivial, tautology), but if I think of the institution that is (say) the Catholic Church, it is so closely identified with Catholicism as a religion that it becomes fairly meaningless to draw a distinction - there is no difference.
    i suspect most church goers dont give 2 hoots about gay marriage or women priests. the people in charge on the other hand do but i suspect its more enlighten self interest (less competition for high jobs and they dont want a reputation for rocking the boat)
    Perhaps you are saying most church goers don't give a hoot about god, the bible and aren't really religious in any meaningful sense? Injustice and discrimination are things done by people not institutions or religion - I get that. But it is people as individuals that have strong 'opinions' that their religion says women should be silent in church. Turns out that 'opinion' is not drawn from some old testament nonsense where bears kill children for making fun of ugly old men (like children do) or the favoured are told to submit their daughters to rape by a stranger, it's new testament stuff written by Paul. So these are people who go to church but don't give a hoot about the Bible! Yet apparently the best selling point so far of religion is that it offers a good guide as to how to live your life. Where is that guide if it is not the sacred texts?

  15. #133
    ozydave's Avatar
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    This thread has been very interesting.

    I do often wonder to what extent church leaders really believe what they say they believe. If the bible is the word of God surly it cannot be open for interpretation.
    Osama bin Laden is the only religious leader that truly truly believed what he said he believes.
    Last edited by ozydave; 22nd May 2013 at 09:58 PM.

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    As much as this is a serious discussion, and I don't want to resort to something often used in situations of ridicule or trolling..
    Question for religious folk-inraa.png

  17. #135

    jinnantonnixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    As much as this is a serious discussion, and I don't want to resort to something often used in situations of ridicule or trolling..
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	inRaA.png 
Views:	44 
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ID:	18347
    No trolling at all - people of a particular religion have dismissed all other religions with as much ease as a believer of another religion, or indeed an atheist, dismisses theirs.

    Sam Harris makes this point far more eloquently that I can.

    Last edited by jinnantonnixx; 22nd May 2013 at 10:44 PM.

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