Good question, poor first part answer but its nearly home time
"The scriptures caution us that if we rely upon signs and wonders, we will be
seduced by the Devil himself. In this respect, the Bible warns us that the
Anti-Christ can also perform miracles, and that "Satan himself masquerades as
an angel of light" (2 Cor 11:14 NIV). Even the Lord himself foretold that:
"false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and
miracles to deceive even the elect..." (Matt 24:24 NIV)."
I beleive that we would know even though his desciples failed to recognise him after the resurection.
BTW NIV=New Internetional Version of the Bible
Last edited by E_G_R2; 22nd May 2013 at 05:29 PM.
Garacesh (22nd May 2013)
Personally - I think that agnosticism is the only logical stance to take - there can be no proof (or disproof) of deities in any meaningful way - so it makes sense to take that on the chin and get on with our lives, mostly following the idea of "do as you would be done by" which seems to cover most of the sensible bits of religious direction..
If god did exist he is a bumbling fool. The eye is often held up as a perfect 'design'. It is self evident that it is not a perfect design. Who in their right mind would design something that is upside down, backward and has blind spots. Then rely on the photoshop like software of the brain to correct and interpret the signals. And why give far more potent optics to a lowly creature such as an owl or hawk
Can omniscient God who,
Knows the future find,
The omnipotence to,
Change His future mind?
Logic doesn't care about which axioms you choose. If your belief was that sinners are evil, can corrupt the innocent or (worse) other believers and be sent to god ASAP for judgement, then it would be logical to kill them. Theologians used pretty much that train of 'logic' to justify burning witches and other heretics. Logic is just a mathematical system of evaluating the truth of something but relies on axiomatic truths - which are the 'belief'.- there can be no proof (or disproof) of deities in any meaningful way - so it makes sense to take that on the chin and get on with our lives, mostly following the idea of "do as you would be done by" which seems to cover most of the sensible bits of religious direction..
Being 'agnostic' is like pascals wager. The flaw is making assumptions about god/gods. Pascal posits that he might as well believe in god because if god doesn't exist his belief costs nothing and if god does exist, his belief then saves him from eternal damnation. OK, but that assumes he chose the *right* god to believe in. Perhaps believing in god X will make god Y very very angry indeed.
Last edited by pcstru; 22nd May 2013 at 09:03 PM. Reason: spelling (not of the witching kind)
ozydave (22nd May 2013)
Perhaps you are saying most church goers don't give a hoot about god, the bible and aren't really religious in any meaningful sense? Injustice and discrimination are things done by people not institutions or religion - I get that. But it is people as individuals that have strong 'opinions' that their religion says women should be silent in church. Turns out that 'opinion' is not drawn from some old testament nonsense where bears kill children for making fun of ugly old men (like children do) or the favoured are told to submit their daughters to rape by a stranger, it's new testament stuff written by Paul. So these are people who go to church but don't give a hoot about the Bible! Yet apparently the best selling point so far of religion is that it offers a good guide as to how to live your life. Where is that guide if it is not the sacred texts?i suspect most church goers dont give 2 hoots about gay marriage or women priests. the people in charge on the other hand do but i suspect its more enlighten self interest (less competition for high jobs and they dont want a reputation for rocking the boat)
This thread has been very interesting.
I do often wonder to what extent church leaders really believe what they say they believe. If the bible is the word of God surly it cannot be open for interpretation.
Osama bin Laden is the only religious leader that truly truly believed what he said he believes.
Last edited by ozydave; 22nd May 2013 at 10:58 PM.
Last edited by jinnantonnixx; 22nd May 2013 at 11:44 PM.
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