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General Chat Thread, Question for religious folk in General; Originally Posted by X-13 FFS. Same source material, two completely different interpretations. theres also translation errors to throw in there ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by X-13 View Post
    FFS.

    Same source material, two completely different interpretations.
    theres also translation errors to throw in there aparantly you can translate virgin mary as unmarried mother just as easily so exactly the sort of person people complain about

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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    you can translate virgin mary as unmarried mother just as easily so exactly the sort of person people complain about
    Jesus made a sit-down dinner for 13 people with little notice.

    I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    .. didn't the Devil/Snake convince Eve to eat from - what the Bible itself declares - the Tree of Knowledge?
    Does it not logically follow, then, that God wishes us not to have knowledge, and in fact, our free will comes not from God, but from the original sin itself? And does it not follow from that, then, that if we are to agree that free will and independence are positive things, that the creature described as the embodiment of all evil is in fact, not so, and instead is the one responsible from releasing us from the shackles of slavery to God?
    (Heck, maybe we'd be happier being mindless slaves, but that's a different discussion. I'm sure most Christians would agree Free Will is a good thing)

    That's what I understand the Bible to say, anyway. I'm not trying to cause arguments, that's just my interpretation of it. Maybe God and the Devil do exist, and the Bible's one big smear campaign :P
    That's my point, they might have been convinced, but they had their free choice, they could have chosen to not do it .. take the Heist by Derren Brown as a great example - he took perfectly innocent people and made them hold up an armoured van, did they have a choice? Yes, they knew that was wrong to do, but still it was something they did (by the way, not saying Derren is the devil here, I quite like his work to be fair) ..

    It's the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the ability to know the difference instead of living in God's design if you like .. they chose to want to know what this all was, we are, by the very nature of our being, sinful ..

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    Quote Originally Posted by bodminman View Post
    Just under a year a ago I wanted to punch so many peoples lights out when they we telling me that 'God chose her' & 'it was Gods will' etc in reaction to hearing of the loss of our baby daughter at 41 weeks!

    Someone even had the audacity to say that 'God will never give you more than you can handle so he obviously holds you in the highest!' I replied with 'explain this to my wife who is taking pills for everything at the moment. ie: too stay awake, to get her to sleep, to numb the pain and to be able to just function day by day at a very basic level. And also how do you think that makes me feel as the person who is also taking various pills for me to be able to get up in the morning and feed my wife and 7 year old daughter etc and also remain on suicide watch because I don't know what my wife may do from one minute to the next'.

    This person didn't have a response.
    I can't tell you what my response would be - I simply would'nt have said that at that time.

    As for the "it was God's will" comment - my concept is that God acts much like a school governor - He knows what's going on, and has a strategic overview (ie He has a plan for the overall direction of life, the universe and everything, but leaves the day to day running to the Head (Science), Bursar (Earth - natural resources) and staff (our bodies)). Like many of our students, we don't know why our bodies, the earth or science do various things, and very sadly, sometimes they do things which are horrific as in your case. I would not say that this is God's will.

    I also think that it's not true that "God will never give you more than you can handle" - I think that challenges will befall all of us, some challenges much worse than others. I think that God knows what challenges lie ahead of us and tries to provide a route for support through those difficulties. I see from your sig a couple of groups which have probably provided you with some support through the past year - my viewpoint would be that God's will was to make this support available and that in the future, your family will be able to support others through the lowest points of their lives.

    I hope that I won't be added to the list of punchees, and will continue to hold your family in my prayers.

  5. 3 Thanks to Willott:

    bodminman (22nd May 2013), E_G_R2 (22nd May 2013), soveryapt (22nd May 2013)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willott View Post
    I can't tell you what my response would be - I simply would'nt have said that at that time.

    As for the "it was God's will" comment - my concept is that God acts much like a school governor - He knows what's going on, and has a strategic overview (ie He has a plan for the overall direction of life, the universe and everything, but leaves the day to day running to the Head (Science), Bursar (Earth - natural resources) and staff (our bodies)). Like many of our students, we don't know why our bodies, the earth or science do various things, and very sadly, sometimes they do things which are horrific as in your case. I would not say that this is God's will.

    I also think that it's not true that "God will never give you more than you can handle" - I think that challenges will befall all of us, some challenges much worse than others. I think that God knows what challenges lie ahead of us and tries to provide a route for support through those difficulties. I see from your sig a couple of groups which have probably provided you with some support through the past year - my viewpoint would be that God's will was to make this support available and that in the future, your family will be able to support others through the lowest points of their lives.

    I hope that I won't be added to the list of punchees, and will continue to hold your family in my prayers.
    I like that governor analogy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Modey View Post
    I really can't imagine what you went through with all that (and obviously still are going through. I just hope there is some light at the end of the tunnel for you all.
    Thankyou. We are in a much better place now thanks but we are also still in the year of firsts. ie: We've had the first christmas without her, mothers day and we still have fathers day and our birthdays to come before we get to the first anniversary on the 4 August!

    Still, we as a family have become a lot stronger and I'm sure we'll be helping each other through various 'moments' for the rest of our lives.

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    @soveryapt - Nope you're not on my list! LOL

    The support groups we're create by myself and my wife along with some friends of our who we had met through another group. There are around 250 members between the 2 groups and sadly this is increasing on a weekly basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soveryapt View Post
    That's my point, they might have been convinced, but they had their free choice, they could have chosen to not do it .. take the Heist by Derren Brown as a great example - he took perfectly innocent people and made them hold up an armoured van, did they have a choice? Yes, they knew that was wrong to do, but still it was something they did (by the way, not saying Derren is the devil here, I quite like his work to be fair) ..

    It's the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the ability to know the difference instead of living in God's design if you like .. they chose to want to know what this all was, we are, by the very nature of our being, sinful ..
    Personally, I think (hypothetically saying the story is true, for sake of ease) it's better that way. I'd much rather know what good and evil was (*) and decide on my own actions. Let's face it - my virtues are worthless if I don't know what evil is. Can I say I'm a 'good' person if I don't know what not being good is?

    * everybodies moral compass is different, anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garacesh View Post
    .. didn't the Devil/Snake convince Eve to eat from - what the Bible itself declares - the Tree of Knowledge?
    Does it not logically follow, then, that God wishes us not to have knowledge, and in fact, our free will comes not from God, but from the original sin itself? And does it not follow from that, then, that if we are to agree that free will and independence are positive things, that the creature described as the embodiment of all evil is in fact, not so, and instead is the one responsible from releasing us from the shackles of slavery to God?
    (Heck, maybe we'd be happier being mindless slaves, but that's a different discussion. I'm sure most Christians would agree Free Will is a good thing)

    That's what I understand the Bible to say, anyway. I'm not trying to cause arguments, that's just my interpretation of it. Maybe God and the Devil do exist, and the Bible's one big smear campaign :P
    I think from my understanding, the tree of knowledge gave all knowledge, not that God wishes us to have no knowledge. Consider schooling (I really have got to stop using schools as an example)... if on the first day of school, a student was given knowledge of everything, so that they no longer needed to be there, but still had to be there (it's school after all, you do your time...) - what have they really learned, and what will they do (act out, misbehave, be bored, come out with no life skills), if the student goes through school learning, then they are occupied, happy etc - this is seen in some footballers of today - pit a 100k a week footballer against someone who gets paid 20k, the likelihood is that the person who has to put most effort into living will be the most rounded. (please note, this is talking about ideal students, not every student).

    From that, I believe that God wants us to work for our knowledge, to develop ourselves, not to be handed everything - yes, I know this is just good morals, but I'm not saying that it's specific to Christians. And that, by free will, we can choose whether to do the work, or not.

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    A couple of things I'd like to say. I believe that science and faith go hand in hand. I think that God is the who, the what, and the why. And science is the how it all fits together.

    Anyhow, my first comment would be for those saying that it's not free-will as God already knows the outcome. God does not see time like we see time. He is not sat at the end of the 'time string' watching back on us, but rather sees time from a totally different viewpoint to us where he can see past, present and future, all of the time. An American pastor called Chuck Missler explains this well. I'm sorry, I'm not the best at getting my views across.

    Secondly, evolution. I thought (and excuse my ignorance here, I'm really not up on things) that DNA (EDIT) was found to be a digital code, not an analogue code? And if so, doesn't this disprove evolution? With an analogue code things can adjust gently over time, but surely with digital code one minute we would have a second nose, and then all of a sudden we don't?
    Last edited by ht6; 22nd May 2013 at 02:31 PM.

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    Can we clear up the free will thing? I know what my wife will do before she does it in certain situations, that doesn't mean I have removed her free will to do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ht6 View Post
    Secondly, evolution. I thought (and excuse my ignorance here, I'm really not up on things) that evolution was found to be a digital code, not an analogue code? And if so, doesn't this disprove evolution? With an analogue code things can adjust gently over time, but surely with digital code one minute we would have a second nose, and then all of a sudden we don't?
    er, WTF!?

    how is evolution digital in any way, shape or form?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Willott View Post
    I think from my understanding, the tree of knowledge gave all knowledge, not that God wishes us to have no knowledge. Consider schooling (I really have got to stop using schools as an example)... if on the first day of school, a student was given knowledge of everything, so that they no longer needed to be there, but still had to be there (it's school after all, you do your time...) - what have they really learned, and what will they do (act out, misbehave, be bored, come out with no life skills), if the student goes through school learning, then they are occupied, happy etc - this is seen in some footballers of today - pit a 100k a week footballer against someone who gets paid 20k, the likelihood is that the person who has to put most effort into living will be the most rounded. (please note, this is talking about ideal students, not every student).

    From that, I believe that God wants us to work for our knowledge, to develop ourselves, not to be handed everything - yes, I know this is just good morals, but I'm not saying that it's specific to Christians. And that, by free will, we can choose whether to do the work, or not.
    I'm not sure this is how it reads. My take is that the tree of knowledge is knowledge of everything, good and bad. Adam and Eve were in paradise, with no knowledge of the good and bad of the world, just that they were happy. Then the devil persuaded them to take a bite, and what can be seen cannot be unseen, and that is why we have to deal with good and bad today - but one day we will return to that paradise.

    I'm also of the viewpoint that the Bible (OT especially) is very poetic, and should not be read literally in a lot of places - for example, did Adam and Eve really bite from the forbidden fruit, or was this just a way to get the situation down on paper that could be easily understood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greenbeast View Post
    er, WTF!?

    how is evolution digital in any way, shape or form?
    Sorry, said I wasn't best at explaining my thoughts. Anyway, meant DNA as digital code.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jawloms View Post
    Can we clear up the free will thing? I know what my wife will do before she does it in certain situations, that doesn't mean I have removed her free will to do it.
    I think you're mixing two arguments there. Free will, and 'God's plan'. @X-13 is arguing one cannot have free will if God has planned our actions (although the earlier analogy of having a basic plan could be applied, the question still stands, is it truly 'free will' if there's a fixed goal, however general? Or is it just 'sorta-kinda-you're-allowed/able-to-do-only-certain-things-so-long-as-the-outcome-is-the-same'? Because that's how it reads to me)
    I personally am arguing the Devil - if the Bible is to be believed - gave us the ability to chose our own actions and think for ourselves. Something, it seems, God had not intended for us.

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