General Chat Thread, Question for religious folk in General; Originally Posted by X-13
Same source material, two completely different interpretations.
theres also translation errors to throw in there ...
22nd May 2013, 01:43 PM #46
theres also translation errors to throw in there aparantly you can translate virgin mary as unmarried mother just as easily so exactly the sort of person people complain about
Originally Posted by X-13
22nd May 2013, 01:52 PM #47
Jesus made a sit-down dinner for 13 people with little notice.
Originally Posted by sted
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.
22nd May 2013, 02:04 PM #48
That's my point, they might have been convinced, but they had their free choice, they could have chosen to not do it .. take the Heist by Derren Brown as a great example - he took perfectly innocent people and made them hold up an armoured van, did they have a choice? Yes, they knew that was wrong to do, but still it was something they did (by the way, not saying Derren is the devil here, I quite like his work to be fair) ..
Originally Posted by Garacesh
It's the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the ability to know the difference instead of living in God's design if you like .. they chose to want to know what this all was, we are, by the very nature of our being, sinful ..
22nd May 2013, 02:05 PM #49
I can't tell you what my response would be - I simply would'nt have said that at that time.
Originally Posted by bodminman
As for the "it was God's will" comment - my concept is that God acts much like a school governor - He knows what's going on, and has a strategic overview (ie He has a plan for the overall direction of life, the universe and everything, but leaves the day to day running to the Head (Science), Bursar (Earth - natural resources) and staff (our bodies)). Like many of our students, we don't know why our bodies, the earth or science do various things, and very sadly, sometimes they do things which are horrific as in your case. I would not say that this is God's will.
I also think that it's not true that "God will never give you more than you can handle" - I think that challenges will befall all of us, some challenges much worse than others. I think that God knows what challenges lie ahead of us and tries to provide a route for support through those difficulties. I see from your sig a couple of groups which have probably provided you with some support through the past year - my viewpoint would be that God's will was to make this support available and that in the future, your family will be able to support others through the lowest points of their lives.
I hope that I won't be added to the list of punchees, and will continue to hold your family in my prayers.
3 Thanks to Willott:
bodminman (22nd May 2013), E_G_R2 (22nd May 2013), soveryapt (22nd May 2013)
22nd May 2013, 02:06 PM #50
I like that governor analogy!
Originally Posted by Willott
22nd May 2013, 02:07 PM #51
Thankyou. We are in a much better place now thanks but we are also still in the year of firsts. ie: We've had the first christmas without her, mothers day and we still have fathers day and our birthdays to come before we get to the first anniversary on the 4 August!
Originally Posted by Modey
Still, we as a family have become a lot stronger and I'm sure we'll be helping each other through various 'moments' for the rest of our lives.
22nd May 2013, 02:11 PM #52
@soveryapt - Nope you're not on my list! LOL
The support groups we're create by myself and my wife along with some friends of our who we had met through another group. There are around 250 members between the 2 groups and sadly this is increasing on a weekly basis.
22nd May 2013, 02:17 PM #53
Personally, I think (hypothetically saying the story is true, for sake of ease) it's better that way. I'd much rather know what good and evil was (*) and decide on my own actions. Let's face it - my virtues are worthless if I don't know what evil is. Can I say I'm a 'good' person if I don't know what not being good is?
Originally Posted by soveryapt
* everybodies moral compass is different, anyway.
22nd May 2013, 02:22 PM #54
I think from my understanding, the tree of knowledge gave all knowledge, not that God wishes us to have no knowledge. Consider schooling (I really have got to stop using schools as an example)... if on the first day of school, a student was given knowledge of everything, so that they no longer needed to be there, but still had to be there (it's school after all, you do your time...) - what have they really learned, and what will they do (act out, misbehave, be bored, come out with no life skills), if the student goes through school learning, then they are occupied, happy etc - this is seen in some footballers of today - pit a £100k a week footballer against someone who gets paid £20k, the likelihood is that the person who has to put most effort into living will be the most rounded. (please note, this is talking about ideal students, not every student).
Originally Posted by Garacesh
From that, I believe that God wants us to work for our knowledge, to develop ourselves, not to be handed everything - yes, I know this is just good morals, but I'm not saying that it's specific to Christians. And that, by free will, we can choose whether to do the work, or not.
22nd May 2013, 02:23 PM #55
- Rep Power
A couple of things I'd like to say. I believe that science and faith go hand in hand. I think that God is the who, the what, and the why. And science is the how it all fits together.
Anyhow, my first comment would be for those saying that it's not free-will as God already knows the outcome. God does not see time like we see time. He is not sat at the end of the 'time string' watching back on us, but rather sees time from a totally different viewpoint to us where he can see past, present and future, all of the time. An American pastor called Chuck Missler explains this well. I'm sorry, I'm not the best at getting my views across.
Secondly, evolution. I thought (and excuse my ignorance here, I'm really not up on things) that DNA (EDIT) was found to be a digital code, not an analogue code? And if so, doesn't this disprove evolution? With an analogue code things can adjust gently over time, but surely with digital code one minute we would have a second nose, and then all of a sudden we don't?
Last edited by ht6; 22nd May 2013 at 02:31 PM.
22nd May 2013, 02:26 PM #56
Can we clear up the free will thing? I know what my wife will do before she does it in certain situations, that doesn't mean I have removed her free will to do it.
22nd May 2013, 02:27 PM #57
Originally Posted by ht6
how is evolution digital in any way, shape or form?
22nd May 2013, 02:31 PM #58
- Rep Power
I'm not sure this is how it reads. My take is that the tree of knowledge is knowledge of everything, good and bad. Adam and Eve were in paradise, with no knowledge of the good and bad of the world, just that they were happy. Then the devil persuaded them to take a bite, and what can be seen cannot be unseen, and that is why we have to deal with good and bad today - but one day we will return to that paradise.
Originally Posted by Willott
I'm also of the viewpoint that the Bible (OT especially) is very poetic, and should not be read literally in a lot of places - for example, did Adam and Eve really bite from the forbidden fruit, or was this just a way to get the situation down on paper that could be easily understood?
22nd May 2013, 02:32 PM #59
- Rep Power
Sorry, said I wasn't best at explaining my thoughts. Anyway, meant DNA as digital code.
Originally Posted by Greenbeast
22nd May 2013, 02:34 PM #60
I think you're mixing two arguments there. Free will, and 'God's plan'. @X-13 is arguing one cannot have free will if God has planned our actions (although the earlier analogy of having a basic plan could be applied, the question still stands, is it truly 'free will' if there's a fixed goal, however general? Or is it just 'sorta-kinda-you're-allowed/able-to-do-only-certain-things-so-long-as-the-outcome-is-the-same'? Because that's how it reads to me)
Originally Posted by Jawloms
I personally am arguing the Devil - if the Bible is to be believed - gave us the ability to chose our own actions and think for ourselves. Something, it seems, God had not intended for us.
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