General Chat Thread, Question for religious folk in General; Originally Posted by E_G_R2
"Also, how is a God fair and just when they punish people for things they didn't ...
22nd May 2013, 10:58 AM #16
Taken from said link:
Originally Posted by E_G_R2
"You are asking, How can a righteous judge allow a criminal to suffer? How can a just judge allow a violent offender to be punished"
You can [censored] right off.
I'm asking how can you punish someone who hasn't done anything.
If someone does something wrong, you punish THEM. Not everyone else. Stuff like that is why I don't like most religion.
22nd May 2013, 11:01 AM #17
I'll not enter a debate but is some if not all of the links you will find that there is no one who in your words "hasn't done anything".
22nd May 2013, 11:03 AM #18
Originally Posted by Sunnyknight
This section is flawed. Cold is just a word - it describes a certain state of heat. For example, we super cool things. There is no such thing as heat either - it is simply a word we use to describe something. Neither prove or disprove the other.
Professor: So what is the point you are making, young man ?
This section is entirely flawed, as everything that the student says that we don't understand or can't prove can be understood and can be proven through testing. We can prove the professor has a brain by cutting his head open. Not a great experiment, I agree, but its doable. We can prove evolution occurs, and we *can* see it happening in a lab environment via bacterial studies. You don't take anything in science on faith. It is demonstrable. Its repeatable. Its observable. You can take things on faith if you want to, but you don't have to. Student : Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed. Professor: Flawed ? Can you explain how? Student : Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good GOD and a bad GOD. You are viewing the concept of GOD as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, Science can’t even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey? Professor: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do. Student : Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir? (The Professor shook his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument was going.) Student : Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor. Are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher? (The class was in uproar.) Student : Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor’s brain? (The class broke out into laughter. ) Student : Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor’s brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established Rules of Empirical, Stable, Demonstrable Protocol, Science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir? (The room was silent. The Professor stared at the student, his face unfathomable.) Professor: I guess you’ll have to take them on faith, son. Student : That is it sir … Exactly ! The link between man & GOD is FAITH. That is all that keeps things alive and moving.
That's the difference between science and religion. Science allows you to out and check things yourself, so long as you have the knowledge, time, money and ability. Religion doesn't.
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22nd May 2013, 11:06 AM #19
Original sin, IIRC, was eating the apple.
Originally Posted by E_G_R2
I didn't eat the apple. Therefore, I shouldn't be punished for it.
22nd May 2013, 11:11 AM #20
Perhaps she should have said "Thank Dog".
Many of the points made by the student in the Professor/Student extract are just playing on words. Science accepts change and adapts to new information, it undergoes review and is developed by experiment, it is based on questioning and reasoning; two things which religion expects you to give up.
22nd May 2013, 11:22 AM #21
Religion ... Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and such but I think anyone who believes that a god actually exists has a mental condition.
It has to be the biggest lie ever told.
22nd May 2013, 11:38 AM #22
biggest possibly not most dangerous undoubtedly
Originally Posted by Galway
22nd May 2013, 11:40 AM #23
Belief in god is not itself irrational, it is just another axiom - like 1+1=2. In terms of "right" to my "opinion" to saying "I like cheese". Irrationality comes when the axiom is used to explain other phenomena or justify actions and behaviour. I think the OP's confusion comes from their view that everything has to 'make sense'. Outside of the domain of mathematical proof, that's a fairly arbitrary standard.
22nd May 2013, 11:43 AM #24
well no i believe the technical term is ontic dumping. I cant control the weather i wonder who can hey presto a "god" then more and more gets dumped in the same pidgeon hole someone writes down some commandments (which on the whole are not a bad set of rules to live by) and you have a relegion
Originally Posted by pcstru
22nd May 2013, 12:01 PM #25
Ontic Dumping - I like that! But I'm not sure what specifically you are disagreeing with -"well no".
Originally Posted by sted
22nd May 2013, 12:34 PM #26
I often use simple logic when people knock on my door/preach in the streets, and I would say I have managed to get people to question their beliefs quite effectively using the following LOGICAL arguments about god and religion.
- Creationism is often the root of the monotheastic faith structure. With the wealth of reasonable evidence at your disposal concerning its infeasibility, you might include arguments concerning evolution, radiocarbon dating--as ridiculous as it may sound, many believe that the earth is 6,000 years old--and asking for an admission where creationism is given some theoretical weight, besides the bible or other religious texts.
- Challenge the belief there is any "science" in religion, except for the fact that there are a few scientific theories that explain that the paranormal isn't impossible (written by actual scientists, not zealots) and that scientists only understand about 4% of the universe. The difference between science and religion is that the former is always willing to reconsider any of its theories, laws and rules. The catch is that the longer a theory is supported by evidence, the stronger the evidence must be to disprove it. Ask any religious person if they would accept any evidence disproving the existence of his/her god(s) and the answer will always be "No." That is why religion can never be classified as "science" regardless of what name you give to it.
- Point out that some religious beliefs may require you to "dumb down" your mind in order to have faith. The mortal enemy of faith is knowledge, a scientific fact that has been demonstrated by researchers at the University of British Columbia. The basis of any religion is that you must believe something someone else tells you is true, even though your mind tells you it is a lie and it makes no sense. There is name for that: fideism. Without fideism, the concept of religion would not exist.
- Show them morality does not require any religious belief. Many people believe that without religion, the planet would descend into immoral chaos. The reality is that the majority of heinous crimes committed against people on this planet across all of recorded history had their roots on religious beliefs, but the ability to distinguish right from wrong does not require any religious beliefs. In addition, animals who are incapable of understanding our human concept of religion show clear evidence of understanding moral behavior and distinguishing between right and wrong.
- The God Delusion. Challenge their religion's roots. Examples of this might include (if challenged by a Christian) that the "devil" was not present in religious texts until the nomadic monotheists ran into polytheists and borrowed the idea.
- Point out that religion, throughout history, has been used to control the masses, rather than enlighten them. An example of this includes the Christian crusades, and the present day suicide bombings of Muslims. Are (insert any monotheist faith here) really that different?
- Target the religious texts. In the case of the bible, often entire verses, stories, and anecdotes were falsified for the sake of making a point. Even the concept of the "holy trinity" is a fabrication created not by any god, but for political reasons by a zealot named Theophilus of of Antioch in 412 AD. Exploit the plot holes, inconsistencies and illogical and impossible things.
- Relate to your religious friend. Ask them for a reason as to why they believe so strongly in their faith besides being raised in the dogma's environment. Be aware of the Hundreds of Proofs of God's existence* they may try to use.
- Demonstrate that people believe whatever they're told to believe. Ask your religious friend if he believes in a specific belief of another religion--for example, if he's Jewish you can ask him if he believes Jesus was the son of god. Assuming he would answer negatively, then ask him whether he thinks he would believe that if he were raised Christian.
- Religion has often been used to explain the unexplainable. The Greeks used Poseidon to explain how earthquakes happen, which we now know is due to the movement of tectonic plates to relieve pressure. What happens when we can prove, and you can't deny, the Big Bang theory and Evolution, which both have such large amounts of logic behind them that it's hard to deny that they are true. This is called "The God of the gaps" factor.
- What happens after death? Many Christians try to use this argument to trick you into thinking you have to go to heaven. However, try relating this to something that has already happened. What happened before you were born? Nothing in the bible says anything about this. Ask them to explain near-death or death experiences that many people have related, and why they never speak of seeing any "heaven," "god," "angels" or anything of the sort.
- Use simple logic.
Christians believe their God is omniscient and knows everything, including everything that has happened and will happen, as well as every thought your mind creates before you think it. If that's the case, there is no "free will."
They also believe their God is omnipotent, and can do anything. Problem is, if their God can do anything but doesn't lift a finger to stop all the disasters, massacres and wars that have happened, are happening now and will happen in the future, their God is also a psychopath who enjoys watching our misery.
However, if the Christian God is not omniscient or omnipotent... well, in that case their God is not a "god" and doesn't exist.
I no longer have Jehovas Witnesses knocking at my door as the last 2 that did, went away questioning their faith.
22nd May 2013, 01:17 PM #27
If there is a god, why oh why would he allow EA to create 'Origin'?
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22nd May 2013, 01:20 PM #28
Just under a year a ago I wanted to punch so many peoples lights out when they we telling me that 'God chose her' & 'it was Gods will' etc in reaction to hearing of the loss of our baby daughter at 41 weeks!
Someone even had the audacity to say that 'God will never give you more than you can handle so he obviously holds you in the highest!' I replied with 'explain this to my wife who is taking pills for everything at the moment. ie: too stay awake, to get her to sleep, to numb the pain and to be able to just function day by day at a very basic level. And also how do you think that makes me feel as the person who is also taking various pills for me to be able to get up in the morning and feed my wife and 7 year old daughter etc and also remain on suicide watch because I don't know what my wife may do from one minute to the next'.
This person didn't have a response.
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22nd May 2013, 01:24 PM #29
A lot of people seem to think that relating it to God's will is in some way comforting.
22nd May 2013, 01:33 PM #30
@bodminman, I'm terribly sorry to hear of your loss, but unfortunately you highlight half of the problem - shifting 'blame' to a deity in order to make it acceptable. Perhaps this is because they can't bear to think that bad things happen to good people? Perhaps they're desperate to pass 'control' of their life to someone or something else in order to live passively instead of getting worked up by things. Of course, I speak only of those 'holds you in the highest' people you mentioned, I'm positive this doesn't apply to all religious folk, but that's just what it screams of to me. They refuse to believe that you, as a good, moral, and loving father, should suffer a tragedy for no reason other than 'just because' (see my earlier comment about the universe not caring), therefore they attribute it to God who can provide (to them) some salvation to the situation (there was some valid reason God stopped the child being born - let's not mention why let it be conceived in the first place then? - the child would have suffered from crippling disease or disability, you wouldn't have been able to cope with another child, etc, whatever their reason may be)
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