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General Chat Thread, Lengthen school day says Gove! in General; Originally Posted by Trapper True, but they also have guaranteed wage increases each year for six years which takes them ...
  1. #46

    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapper View Post
    True, but they also have guaranteed wage increases each year for six years which takes them way past the median UK salary. There are very few jobs which offer that. The MPS encompasses two support staff Grades in Birmingham each with 8 yearly increments based on performance management.
    Oh yes, I know that and I am of the opinion that teachers are quite well paid - I just wasn't happy about the statement as I knew it to be untrue

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    Except that you are not comparing like for like as the median wage in London is higher, even for women which will alter the case substantially. And no NQT can take on extra responsibility and most have no prior experience IME
    But then, statistics can be used to show anything, can't they? Also, why pick on teachers? The median graduate salary in the UK is around £24000
    Because teachers are the ones bitching about how dreadfully tiring their poor little lives are and how terribly hard done by they are. The public sector has had it way too easy for the last decade or so, and teachers have been given hefty salary increases with no commensurate requirement to up their game. We're paying champagne money for beer performance.

  3. #48

    witch's Avatar
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    I don't agree
    But anyway, has anyone seen (or posted) this?
    Labour Lords | A question of class | IWC2

    Very interesting and thought-provoking. Particularly the bit about Asian schools changing direction a bit

  4. #49


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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post
    Because teachers are the ones bitching about how dreadfully tiring their poor little lives are and how terribly hard done by they are. The public sector has had it way too easy for the last decade or so, and teachers have been given hefty salary increases with no commensurate requirement to up their game. We're paying champagne money for beer performance.
    Have you actually been near a school in the last 10 years? No requirement to up their game - what rot, Ofsted reworked their ratings upwards, meaning previously satisfactory performance is now graded as requiring improvement. Teachers are more and more assessed on the progress of their students and have been for at least the last decade. And while I'm sure there are lazy teachers out there, just as there are lazy people in every walk of life, the majority of teachers work long hours outside of the classroom preparing lessons, marking coursework and reading up on the ever changing requirements of the curriculum.

    But hey, stick to generalisations - I'm sure it must save you hurting your head actually thinking.

  5. 3 Thanks to pcstru:

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  6. #50

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    I agree. Whilst I have always been annoyed by teachers who seem to presume that the rest of the working population actually do only work 9-5.30 and they are the only ones doing long hours - I have seen an explosion in the amount of paperwork and planning etc in the last few years. Now, EVERY child has to have its progress assessed in EVERY lesson and woe betide the teacher if progress hasn't been made (ridiculous in my view). The data requirement is phenomenal as is the requirement to actually USE the data to decide how to best help every child. It almost seems as if the standing up and teaching in front of children is actually the least part of the job.
    As a school governor I am very aware of all the data and how it is used and I can see that teachers are being held more and more accountable for every little thing they do, and asked to justify everything as well. They are assessed more continously and put on pathways to improvement and reassessed all the time. Salary increases are being tied to evidence much more now as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post
    The public sector has had it way too easy for the last decade or so
    Wow, do you even know anyone working in the public sector, I doubt it as if you did you wouldn't be resorting to these kind of Daily Mail generalisations about lazy Public Sector workers.
    Having teachers, doctors and nurses in the family, I know the pressures that are placed on these people and it certainly doesn't fit in with your view.

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    do i have to work longer hours? if so i want to be paid accordingly.
    will the holiday calander be shorter? i should be able to book time off in term time.

    although saying that where i work we have less holidays (4 in summer) and the kids to 8-4 mon and fri, 8-5 tue, wed, thurs. its bloody tiring tho! i do 720-410 and was in saturday just gone, sometimes a week off isnt enough.

    to note i am still restricted to booking holiday outside of term time with the exception of TOIL days.

  9. #53

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    That's another issue isn't it - when we take time off. If we all have to work longer, and holidays are more sparse, suddenly holidays are more concentrated in terms of people trying to get away. It means the cost of going away will go up.

    One of the things that has been said before about doing this is to stagger holidays. But its not really doable, as you then end up with parents who have kids in different schools who can't have a family holiday.

    Rest and respite are as important as working. Without them, people burn out - even kids.

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    I'm afraid I'm in support of this idea too - from the point of view of someone who will struggle to make ends meet unless I'm back at work within hours of birthing a sproglet, lengthening the school day would help tremendously where childcare and after-school supervision is concerned. If the school day finished at 5 more people would be able to work proper full time hours. In a country where the average full time private sector worker gets 25 days of holiday a year plus bank holidays in many cases, trying to accommodate the additional 8 weeks kids get is very difficult and expensive. Perhaps if kids were in school longer and had less holiday we might see a drop in the instances of antisocial behaviour as they would be supervised for more of the time?

    I certainly think more time could be spent in school on languages, but I also feel that vocational interests shouldn't be underestimated - with more time in the school days schools could offer a more varied curriculum with more practical subjects - A more effective, practical IT curriculum, perhaps courses in Vehicle maintenance/mechanics, better 'household skills' like DIY and Cooking (perhaps if people learned how to cook properly they might eat better therefore less obesity?), and perhaps even 'Electronics', horticulture, carpentry, engineering etc etc.

    I do agree though that the workload on people in the education sector is already high enough, so if they do extend the school day then this must be at the expense of more staff to cover the additional hours as I don't think giving teachers a higher workload is the answer. Similarly for non teaching staff there may have to be a 'shift' element to their jobs as there is in the private sector. Most non teaching staff seem to work until nearly 6 anyway so they are already working full time hours, therefore the day would need to be split with some staff covering the 'morning' and some the 'late'. In the private sector a person in IT would work 40 hours a week, with 25 days of holiday a year but would expect to earn between £20k and £30k at a second line level and upwards of £40k at managerial level. At the moment non teaching staff salaries seem to be pro rata so many non teaching staff are working long days but getting a LOT of holiday and earning between £15k and £20k. They would HAVE to up the wages paid if they extended school hours to match the sorts of hours worked in the private sector.
    Last edited by AMLightfoot; 22nd April 2013 at 10:00 AM.

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    Just to clarify - legal minimum holiday days is 28. However, bank holidays can be included in this number. Doesn't make much difference but still, best be accurate.

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    I am getting really fed up with successive governments' belief that they can cherry pick specific element of other countries education systems and parachute them into our system without any regard for the cultural differences, the history of how that country has reached this point or the effects of the making these changes.

    For example, South Korea is often cited as a model system yet many have blamed the pressures of the system on a spiraling suicide rate: BBC News - Tackling South Korea's high suicide rates - this isn't something we want to emulate. We already have the unhappiest kids in the developed world (British children 'unhappiest in the world', say academics - Telegraph) with a pressurised education system (our kids are about the most tested kids in the world!), I don't think its a good idea to keep them in school and subject to that pressure for *more* hours a day!

    Also, schools should not be seen as a baby sitting service so that parents can go to work. I totally agree that there is an issue with the cost of childcare in this country but surely the answer is to make childcare affordable, not extend school hours?

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    My daughter goes to a private school and the hours are shorter and holidays longer - she had at least 3 and a half weeks off at Easter.

    But results are outstanding, so its not always a case of needing more time to teach.

    But the six week holiday is a very outdated principle, wasn't it historically to allow kids to help with the harvest?

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    does the extra time in school need to be teaching time? Wouldnt the extra time be better used doing something non academic say sports, first aid, cooking or as someone else mentioned vehicle maintanance granted that requires a new set of "teachers" but fot the less academically minded kids could be good to do something more practical. An obvious other idea is some sort of mass homework club so the kids can colabarate on stuff and dont have to work at home.

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    Excellent point I think, @sted. The words "blended learning" and "flipped classroom" spring to mind...

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    Quote Originally Posted by sted View Post
    does the extra time in school need to be teaching time? Wouldnt the extra time be better used doing something non academic say sports, first aid, cooking or as someone else mentioned vehicle maintanance granted that requires a new set of "teachers" but fot the less academically minded kids could be good to do something more practical. An obvious other idea is some sort of mass homework club so the kids can colabarate on stuff and dont have to work at home.
    That's exactly my point - don't hammer the kids over the head with more maths and curriculum subjects, offer them choice - languages, practical IT, additional sports or vocational interests - we'd be more likely to see those less academically inclined actually get something out of being at school rather than ending up as a disillusioned troublemaker. I think vocational pathways are so often underestimated but if our cars break down who fixes them? If our boilers blow up or our pipes explode who do we turn to? Technicans and plumbers. These are important, valuable roles and when the zombie apocalypse comes, the practical roles will be the ones people need! The earlier we can get young people engaged in these subjects the earlier we can intervene to stop a young person who is less academically inclined from becoming disruptive and unproductive. Given how expensive continuing education is now becoming, many young people are 'priced out' of university and to offer the beginnings of vocational pathways at school would provide a real, valid alternative. I would certainly support my children in pursuing a practical course in IT (for example) as personally I feel hands-on experience is worth more than any amount of theoretical knowledge.

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