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General Chat Thread, Lengthen school day says Gove! in General; An example for you - there used to be something called "Play Rangers" which used to arrange play activities down ...
  1. #31

    localzuk's Avatar
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    An example for you - there used to be something called "Play Rangers" which used to arrange play activities down here, which had its funding cut and they stopped.

  2. #32

    Andrew_C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechMonkey View Post
    what about looking at the private sector? They seem to have even longer holidays & yet their results seem to be ok. 3 weeks for Easter?
    Cough... Four if you don't mind...

    However, they do work VERY long days and have 5 lessons on a Saturday morning. 5 lessons Tues and Thurs morning, sprot and what-not in the afternoons. Mon, Weds, & Fri eight lessons, timed to allow more extra-curricular stuff. After all those lessons, there will be a couple hours COMPULSORY "homework".

  3. #33

    elsiegee40's Avatar
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    Private schools do generally get better results and they do have longer holidays, but...

    - They often have a longer school day: 8.30am to 4pm or later is not uncommon for prep schools (primary). The private secondary in our town teaches until 6pm! And the preps finish at 4.30pm or 4pm
    - The secondaries teach on Saturday mornings.
    - The pupils come from a home environment where they have the space and parental support that means homework gets done and that holiday homework (lots of it) is expected and is also done.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by JJonas View Post
    Im happy to accept the lower than average wage in return for the increased time I spend with my family. If Mr Gove expects me to spend less time with my family then I need to be compensated for that.
    The basic starting salary for a NQT is the median income for the average earner in the UK. Teachers don't have a 'lower than average' wage, they have a higher than average wage. As well as 15 weeks of holiday.

  5. #35
    speckytecky's Avatar
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    Some cracking answers here - let's hope someone on here is a friend of Gove's and can point him toward the common sense being talked here. Maybe, just maybe he might then develop a really decent policy and stick with it. Also if this Government -Pah! Really wanted to leave a lasting mark of good they would ditch the BST clock change because after all that was also from the days we were an agrarian culture as well wasn't it.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by speckytecky View Post
    Some cracking answers here - let's hope someone on here is a friend of Gove's and can point him toward the common sense being talked here. Maybe, just maybe he might then develop a really decent policy and stick with it. Also if this Government -Pah! Really wanted to leave a lasting mark of good they would ditch the BST clock change because after all that was also from the days we were an agrarian culture as well wasn't it.
    Hear hear!

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post
    The basic starting salary for a NQT is the median income for the average earner in the UK. Teachers don't have a 'lower than average' wage, they have a higher than average wage. As well as 15 weeks of holiday.
    I am a full time IT Technician.

  8. #38

    SpuffMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speckytecky View Post
    Some cracking answers here - let's hope someone on here is a friend of Gove's and can point him toward the common sense being talked here. Maybe, just maybe he might then develop a really decent policy and stick with it. Also if this Government -Pah! Really wanted to leave a lasting mark of good they would ditch the BST clock change because after all that was also from the days we were an agrarian culture as well wasn't it.
    I suppose one would have to point out that short hours and long holidays doesn't seem to have held Mr Gove back in any meaningful way - just saying...

  9. #39

    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post
    The basic starting salary for a NQT is the median income for the average earner in the UK. Teachers don't have a 'lower than average' wage, they have a higher than average wage. As well as 15 weeks of holiday.
    You are mistaken. The starting salary for an NQT is £21588. The median UK income for 2011 is £26244.(Office of National Statistics website, see below) That's quite a difference which shows that an NQT's salary is nowhere near the median salary for the UK

    "UK Salary Statistics:
    The 2011 median gross annual earnings for full-time employees was £26,244, an increase of 1.4% from 2010. The median gross annual earnings for full-time women was £22,910 (an increase of 1.9%) and £28,409 (an increase of 1.2%) for full-time men."
    Last edited by witch; 19th April 2013 at 09:08 PM.

  10. #40

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    I can see the idea behind it, but it really hasn't been costed or thought through properly so when they start crunching the numbers and looking at the knock on effects then I can see this being kicked into the long grass pretty quickly.
    For a start, staff costs are going to increase massively, teachers will need to be compensated for the extra hours or extra teachers employed to cope with the extra hours. Same with support staff, most of our support staff are only contracted from the current start to end of school hours, so their hours will need increasing, again costing more. PFI and BSF schools will probably get screwed for more money as the opening hours are longer.
    You then have to look at the environmental issue and the hassle of the school runs being combined with rush hour, causing even more congestion at peak times.
    IT wise, not really a problem as it works fine in business, apart from again extra costs for increasing technicians hours to full time and also paying overtime for out of hours work when upgrades need to be done. Yes certain upgrades can be done during school time, others can't.
    I'm not against the idea, but there will be a lot of extra costs involved and schools aren't exactly rolling in money.
    Last edited by teejay; 20th April 2013 at 12:11 AM.

  11. #41

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    Having had my lad go through the school system - I could never understand why more schools don't offer after-school childminding as an add on feature - they've already got the infrastructure - it wouldn't be a massive amount of managing to organise some extra staff and I would imagine they could make a reasonable whack if charging similar to the child minders we had to hire - even more if they put on homework clubs or catch up sessions or extra sporting stuff for those that like that sort of thing.

  12. #42

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    Can we be very careful about how we define "Asian schools"?

    South Korea is recognised as having one of the best education systems in the world - however they achieve it - but certainly we must also include North Korea, China, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, Vietnam... the list goes on. In many respects - not just in terms of education but also ethos and culture - these countries are all quite different from one another. Brian Lightman of the ASCL commented on Gove's announcement, saying we should not base our education systems on "anecdotes from other countries with vastly different cultures and attitudes to education". I'd be inclined to agree.

    Also, yes, 24/7 operations work fine in some businesses, but in others they're not yet viable and certainly we must recognise that there will be schools whose staffing arrangements (and budgets) haven't put them in a position to demand anything extra on top of what they are currently offering.

    Having said that, I'd support Gove's idea in principle but then a feasibility study must be carried out to determine, at a local level, just how viable this is. LEAs might be surveyed to determine the level of viability within individual schools in their purview... but then we must consider counties like Northamptonshire where most schools are now academies, which would complicate this task somewhat...
    Last edited by Ephelyon; 20th April 2013 at 01:48 AM.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    You are mistaken. The starting salary for an NQT is £21588.

    The median UK income for 2011 is £26244.(Office of National Statistics website, see below) That's quite a difference which shows that an NQT's salary is nowhere near the median salary for the UK

    "UK Salary Statistics:
    The 2011 median gross annual earnings for full-time employees was £26,244, an increase of 1.4% from 2010. The median gross annual earnings for full-time women was £22,910 (an increase of 1.9%) and £28,409 (an increase of 1.2%) for full-time men."
    Apologies. You are right. I was out on my figures.

    I will rephrase it:

    Assuming that you are a man, or work in or around London, and have no prior experience and take on no significant responsibility which offers you a pay increase, you, as an NQT, will not earn the median wage for men in the UK.

    However, if you are a woman (like 90% of primary teachers and 65% of secondary teachers), or work in or around London, then as an NQT your salary will be within a whisker of the median wage for women in the UK. And within 12 months it will match it.

  14. #44

    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatpackhamster View Post
    Apologies. You are right. I was out on my figures.

    I will rephrase it:

    Assuming that you are a man, or work in or around London, and have no prior experience and take on no significant responsibility which offers you a pay increase, you, as an NQT, will not earn the median wage for men in the UK.

    However, if you are a woman (like 90% of primary teachers and 65% of secondary teachers), or work in or around London, then as an NQT your salary will be within a whisker of the median wage for women in the UK. And within 12 months it will match it.
    Except that you are not comparing like for like as the median wage in London is higher, even for women which will alter the case substantially. And no NQT can take on extra responsibility and most have no prior experience IME
    But then, statistics can be used to show anything, can't they? Also, why pick on teachers? The median graduate salary in the UK is around £24000
    Last edited by witch; 20th April 2013 at 03:22 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    You are mistaken. The starting salary for an NQT is £21588. The median UK income for 2011 is £26244.(Office of National Statistics website, see below) That's quite a difference which shows that an NQT's salary is nowhere near the median salary for the UK

    "UK Salary Statistics:
    The 2011 median gross annual earnings for full-time employees was £26,244, an increase of 1.4% from 2010. The median gross annual earnings for full-time women was £22,910 (an increase of 1.9%) and £28,409 (an increase of 1.2%) for full-time men."
    True, but they also have guaranteed wage increases each year for six years which takes them way past the median UK salary. There are very few jobs which offer that. The MPS encompasses two support staff Grades in Birmingham each with 8 yearly increments based on performance management.



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