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General Chat Thread, Climate change - MP has second thoughts in General; I'm not posting this up as a pro or anti climate change debate, but this entry posted up by MP ...
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    Dos_Box's Avatar
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    Climate change - MP has second thoughts

    I'm not posting this up as a pro or anti climate change debate, but this entry posted up by MP Douglas Carswell in his blog are quire revealing as is the link about the life expectancy of wind turbines (not so green if you have to replace them after 10-15 years - in fact they could be very carbon un-neutral!).
    Anyway, links here:

    Douglas Carswell | Home

    Wear and Tear Hits Wind Farm Output and Economic Lifetime

    This should make for some interesting lunchtime chat!

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    CAM
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    An engineering friend of mine said the same thing years back, glad to see it's finally reached someone further up! He described wind farms as a waste as they took more energy to produce and assemble then they would ever return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    I'm not posting this up as a pro or anti climate change debate, but this entry posted up by MP Douglas Carswell in his blog are quire revealing as is the link about the life expectancy of wind turbines (not so green if you have to replace them after 10-15 years - in fact they could be very carbon un-neutral!).
    Global Warming or not, one thing we can all agree on is that there will be people gaming the debate on both sides to make money. In my state we just defeated a proposal last November that would have upped the state's percentage of power that is generated from renewable resources from 10% to 25% by 2020. Of course if you looked at the funding going into the ad campaign in favor of this a large portion was coming from firms that have stakes in renewable energy. The proposal would have made this law by amending the state constitution. Think of the children/environment can be strong motivational rally cries for a cause. I'm just glad we saw through this one.

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    dhicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dos_Box View Post
    Wear and Tear Hits Wind Farm Output and Economic Lifetime
    So we need to engineer a better solution. Oil and gas will run out, but while they last the UK should re-invest the revenue in development of renewable energy systems - we live on an island buffeted by winds, wind and wave turbines would seem to be the logical things to specialise in.

  5. 2 Thanks to dhicks:

    SimpleSi (26th February 2013), witch (27th February 2013)

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    unixman_again's Avatar
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    There's plenty of unmined coal left in the UK. Build a couple of nice, big coal fired power stations (with coal fired stations, bigger = better) and all of the household power shortages go away.

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    zag
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    This is simple right wing politics, its a vote winner to oppose wind farms in some places in the country. Anything can be made "uneconomical" by simply presenting a certain set of statistics.

    The economics do stack up, just look at what Germany and Denmark are doing. In 10 years we will look back and admire their shift away from Nuclear and Fossil Fuels. Although saying that they have a big Green Party influence over there.
    Last edited by zag; 27th February 2013 at 10:51 AM.

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    witch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unixman_again View Post
    There's plenty of unmined coal left in the UK. Build a couple of nice, big coal fired power stations (with coal fired stations, bigger = better) and all of the household power shortages go away.
    ....and never mind the pollution....

    I agree with @zag - statistics are a wonderful thing.
    We should definitely be looking at Germany where they have changed the whole face of energy production successfully.
    http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-...eats-forecasts
    Last edited by witch; 27th February 2013 at 10:44 AM.

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    I have heard (from someone who looked at places for wind farms), that the actual cost of a turbine was more then double the amount of energy it would produce in value.

    It has been known for a long time they aren't carbon neutral but people accept them more willingly then other methods of energy production. Personally I would like to see tidal being done more, estimates for the Severn Barrier would be capable of producing 5% of the UK Energy needs, but as with every product they are expensive and always someone doesn't like the idea.

    http://planetearth.nerc.ac.uk/blogs/...d=1037&pid=367

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    Geoff's Avatar
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    Don't tidal barrages trash the local marine environment?

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    Honestly, I don't know, it seems to depend on where you read about it.

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    dhicks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unixman_again View Post
    There's plenty of unmined coal left in the UK.
    There's a huge great nuclear fusion reactor sitting a mere 1AU away, if anything we should be concentrating on getting energy from that.

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    Solar isn't there yet. Last time I looked I calculated that even with the best panels we would need an area greater than the UK to produce enough power for the UK. And that's before you take night and winter into account.

    ATM the only viable option IMO is nuclear.

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    89.5% of all statistics are made up!

    ..I once posted on a forum something like "so much for global warming, I had to scrape the ice from my windscreen today.."

    The flames I received from 'green' people!

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    ....and never mind the pollution....

    I agree with @zag - statistics are a wonderful thing.
    We should definitely be looking at Germany where they have changed the whole face of energy production successfully.
    German official: renewable energy beats forecasts - Businessweek

    Yes, but in the meantime, like us, they are closing power plants before they have anything to take up the slack. It's all right though as they are buying nuclear power from France and the Czech Republic: Greenwashing after the Phase-Out: German 'Energy Revolution' Depends on Nuclear Imports - SPIEGEL ONLINE
    Personally I think we should be investing heavily in Thorium research and power plants.
    The point I was hinting at in my first post is that wind turbines are simply not viable as a 'green source of power generation. They cost more to make than they produce, their production creates more carbon than they save (even more now they will need replacing a lot sooner than expected) and you still need the same amount of power plants to provide the electricity they are not generating when there is no wind i.e when it is very very cold, and you cannot simply turn conventional power plants off and on.
    As for global warming:

    Global warming stopped 16 years ago, Met Office report reveals: MoS got it right about warming... so who are the 'deniers' now? | Mail Online
    Met Office: global warming predictions revised down - Channel 4 News

    For oil as well there is no shortage.In the past oil reserves were dictated by just how much the big oil companies could access, however, as technology moves on, reserves that were previously inaccessible such as around western Scotland and the Falklands can now be reached. That is not to say that I'm all for oil based power for electricty generation and transport, I'm not, I can't wait for decent alternatives to become viable and not the current 'gimmicks' we have now. The need to panic is not there. The only thing we should be concerned about is the closing of current plants (many before their end-of-life) with nothing to replace them.

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    witch's Avatar
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    "Global warming stopped" That's the MAIL you are quoting there! The rate of increase may have slowed down but it hasn't stopped.
    Revised down is more like it.
    I agree that we need to keep with what we have but work a lot harder to provide viable alternatives - cold fusion anyone?
    As for wind farms being uneconomic - same goes for battery powered cars - yes they pollute less where they are but the batteries are not very long-lived and uneconomic to produce not to mention the electricity they use



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