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General Chat Thread, George Osborne can't do this job. in General; Originally Posted by sparkeh 2) A conservative estimate of money lost through tax avoidance by the rich is 12bn So ...
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    Robz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    2) A conservative estimate of money lost through tax avoidance by the rich is 12bn

    So rather than kicking the people at the bottom of society why aren't we angry at the people at the top who are avoiding paying what they morally should and getting richer and richer under the Tory Government?

    The Tory toffs must be laughing at us at right now.
    We live in a capitalist country, the aim of every person is to make money, most of us would probably do the same thing if you were in their position, "ooo look a legal loophole to make more money" - come on you know you would do it if it meant more money for you and your family.

    On the topic of benefits I favour the credit scheme, and tbh I think if you lose your job, you should receive benefits based on how much you have contributed to the economy - basically your taxes support you i.e. you work 5 years then lose your job so you are entitled to benefits for 2.5 years.

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    Getting angry at the benefits lifestylers (much nicer phrase than scroungers, that, I like it) or the tax-dodging rich is pointless; they're just playing by the rules of the game. We need to be angry at the political class for such a crap rules system in the first place. Y'know, the rules system that lets them claim inordinate amounts of expenses to just sit on their backside for 5 years and toe the party line.

    Unfortuantely, whilst the political class is so tightly tied in with so many other interests - private sponsors, friends in corporations, one eye on the after-dinner speaking job post-retirement - we're unlikely to ever break the cycle. The whole political system needs shaking up. What to, though, I don't know.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    without falling into abstract poverty
    Abstract poverty: a lack of Picasso prints in one's abode. (probably meant abject poverty )

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  4. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robz View Post
    On the topic of benefits I favour the credit scheme, and tbh I think if you lose your job, you should receive benefits based on how much you have contributed to the economy - basically your taxes support you i.e. you work 5 years then lose your job so you are entitled to benefits for 2.5 years.
    Could backfire horribly when you have a 19 year old who through no fault of their own are made redundant and, on a last-in-first-out system, are out on their backside in a slow economy. I get your sentiment, but I fear any system would need to be much more complicated to cover all the "what ifs"

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    Could backfire horribly when you have a 19 year old who through no fault of their own are made redundant and, on a last-in-first-out system, are out on their backside in a slow economy. I get your sentiment, but I fear any system would need to be much more complicated to cover all the "what ifs"
    I think there should be a safeguard of 1 year default to support those in such situations, difficult subject but to sort the issues fairly the difficult topics need to be covered

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    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robz View Post
    We live in a capitalist country, the aim of every person is to make money, most of us would probably do the same thing if you were in their position, "ooo look a legal loophole to make more money" - come on you know you would do it if it meant more money for you and your family.
    Wow what a thoroughly depressing view point you have.
    The aim of every person is to make money? I disagree. Its not my aim at all. Of course I wish to provide for my family but my aim is to lead a happy life.
    Truth be told both my wife and I took hefty paycuts to change jobs to lead a much happy, less stressful lives, so no, actually I wouldn't use a morally repugnant loophole to cheat my way to more money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robz View Post
    We live in a capitalist country, the aim of every person is to make money, most of us would probably do the same thing if you were in their position, "ooo look a legal loophole to make more money" - come on you know you would do it if it meant more money for you and your family.

    On the topic of benefits I favour the credit scheme, and tbh I think if you lose your job, you should receive benefits based on how much you have contributed to the economy - basically your taxes support you i.e. you work 5 years then lose your job so you are entitled to benefits for 2.5 years.
    Great, so someone who loses their job after a couple of years working is now not getting benefits because you've deemed them to have worked enough to get any? Ridiculous idea. Lets just make the poor go work in workhouses or better yet, why not as slaves?

    And as you say 'benefits' I assume you mean jobseekers/unemployment only, as if you are including support for those who are working but not earning enough, or those with disabilities then you are worse than I thought.

    Its quite simple - there are not enough jobs for all the people who need them, so we can't really penalise those who are trying to get jobs.

    We can make it tougher for people to be able to just live off benefits forever without trying to get jobs though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Wow what a thoroughly depressing view point you have.
    The aim of every person is to make money? I disagree. Its not my aim at all. Of course I wish to provide for my family but my aim is to lead a happy life.
    Truth be told both my wife and I took hefty paycuts to change jobs to lead a much happy, less stressful lives, so no, actually I wouldn't use a morally repugnant loophole to cheat my way to more money.
    So in order to live a happy life you use no money at all? You have forsaken money altogether? Every person needs to make money to live - hence their aim is to make money, to what extent they make money is down to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Great, so someone who loses their job after a couple of years working is now not getting benefits because you've deemed them to have worked enough to get any? Ridiculous idea. Lets just make the poor go work in workhouses or better yet, why not as slaves?

    And as you say 'benefits' I assume you mean jobseekers/unemployment only, as if you are including support for those who are working but not earning enough, or those with disabilities then you are worse than I thought.

    Its quite simple - there are not enough jobs for all the people who need them, so we can't really penalise those who are trying to get jobs.

    We can make it tougher for people to be able to just live off benefits forever without trying to get jobs though.
    Yes I do mean just those, there are some who swindle the system in regards to the medical side of things but lets not go there as it is less common.

    How did i say you don't get benefits after a couple of years of working? - I said the opposite, you get out what you put in, if you work then lose your job then you should get benefits, if you never work through laziness then you should get nothing. and as I said to sonofsanta a person coming in to the world of work but can find no job should be supported temporarily.

    The lack of jobs is partly down to some people believing some jobs are beneath them so leave it for those, namely immigrants, who actually have a work ethic and will take such jobs

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    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robz View Post
    So in order to live a happy life you use no money at all? You have forsaken money altogether? Every person needs to make money to live - hence their aim is to make money, to what extent they make money is down to them.
    Ha! Now you're just being silly.
    Of course I need money, however, I refuse to lumped in with your depressing money grabbing view of the UK public.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    Ha! Now you're just being silly.
    Of course I need money, however, I refuse to lumped in with your depressing money grabbing view of the UK public.
    I don't see how it is a depressing money grabbing view, its the facts, we are a capitalist country in order to live we need money - therefore the aim of everybody is to make money to live.

  13. #71

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    It is possible to be a capitalist from the point of view of wanting to make money, but also to hold views about the moral responsibility to those less fortunate than ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    It is possible to be a capitalist from the point of view of wanting to make money, but also to hold views about the moral responsibility to those less fortunate than ourselves.
    Agreed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robz View Post
    I don't see how it is a depressing money grabbing view, its the facts, we are a capitalist country in order to live we need money - therefore the aim of everybody is to make money to live.
    It's a bit depressing because it has it's sights set so low. My aim is "quality of life", money is a part of that, but actually a relatively small part. I've been on benefits in the past and probably people thought I was a scrounger at that time. I've paid more in tax in my working life than I ever claimed in benefits or cost the country in education. I'm glad to live in a society where people can get free medical care and where we try not to allow people to fall into absolute poverty. I get sickened by the "I don't use it why should I pay for it" attitude that seems to stem from a Republican America, where the rich are fleecing the poor and seem to want the poor to feel gratitude for that. I'm sickened by the attitude of the rich in this country to paying their fair share of taxes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by witch View Post
    It is possible to be a capitalist from the point of view of wanting to make money, but also to hold views about the moral responsibility to those less fortunate than ourselves.
    Totally. I believe that capitalism is a necessary evil for society to function but it is best tempered by socialist governance. Shame we don't have a worthwhile lefty party to vote for

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    I'd quite fancy moving to Bhutan where they put great store in the "Gross National Happiness" rather than GDP. Very few PCs too at a guess.

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