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Gaming Thread, New Xbox requires an always-on connection to block used games in Fun Stuff; Now come on @ X-13 , this is basic copyright stuff! The fact that they don't get duly compensated for ...
  1. #46

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Now come on @X-13, this is basic copyright stuff! The fact that they don't get duly compensated for each copy sold is the reason prices are stupidly high - 60 for a new game!?! People rent games or buy second hand because the prices are so high. Every game that is rented or played second hand, like piracy, is a lost sale. Once you've completed the game you're unlikely to go buy a new copy just to say thank you to the people who made it. If the devs don't get compensated appropriately they go out of business and we don't get new games.

    The status quo is the first person to purchase the game is paying quiet a high price for everybody else to play the game, a little unfair. The only place I have a problem is if the Publishers are keeping prices artificially high to make profit at the expense of the developers.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by SYNACK View Post
    Not exactly immersive in comparison, I defy a tablet to be more compelling than my 55" TV and surround system, the whole feedback thing from an ergonomic controller with analogue buttons is also much nicer than jabbing relentlessly as a Paine of glass.
    Agree. There are some games that work well, better even on a tablet but there are also some games that work better on a big TV, and some games that work better on a PC. I think it would be a shame if one of those segments killed the others off.

    I do think that tablet/smartphone devices are going to be king at casual gaming. But that's where they excel.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    The fact that they don't get duly compensated for each copy sold is the reason prices are stupidly high - 60 for a new game!?!
    It's not my fault publishers are greedy and take the majority of the profits.

    If they want to be paid more, get a better publisher.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Every game that is rented or played second hand, like piracy, is a lost sale.
    Try again.


    Next you'll be saying piracy is theft.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Once you've completed the game you're unlikely to go buy a new copy just to say thank you to the people who made it.
    I've, personally, done this.

    Multiple times.


    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    If the devs don't get compensated appropriately they go out of business and we don't get new games.
    You mean like Big Huge games/38 studios?

    Where EA took 70% of the profits and just let them burn?


    Again, it's not my fault they got into bed with a scummy company. And screwing over the people keeping you in business isn't right.

  4. #49

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    @X-13, Are you seriously arguing that, regardless of media (movies, music, games, etc), someone who has put in a lot of time and effort creating an original creative work should not be properly compensated for their time, effort and creativity?

    As for greedy publishers. There does seem to be a post iOS trend back towards indie developers that download only gaming seems to have invigorated. This can only be viewed as a good thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by X-13 View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right - as the old saying goes.

    Next you'll be saying piracy is theft.
    Of course it is! And if I've ever done it, I've done it knowingly!

  5. #50

    X-13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    @X-13, Are you seriously arguing that, regardless of media (movies, music, games, etc), someone who has put in a lot of time and effort creating an original creative work should not be properly compensated for their time, effort and creativity?
    Nope. I'm arguing they have no right to demand payment for something that was already sold. Once I buy something, I own it. It's up to me what I do with it. That includes selling it on.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Two wrongs don't make a right - as the old saying goes.
    Getting screwed by publishers = wrong.

    Screwing over fans to conmpensate = also wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Of course it is! And if I've ever done it, I've done it knowingly!
    In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.

    No-one is being deprived of anything. In fact, MORE are being made.


    Piracy isn't theft. It's copying.
    Last edited by X-13; 11th February 2013 at 10:40 AM.

  6. #51

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    So where do you stand on car parking tickets? Is it okay to give it to another driver if you don't need to use up all the time on the ticket you paid for? What is it we are actually purchasing? The media and it's contents, or the right to use the contents? If it's the later is it right to sell it on?

    It's not a unique problem to gaming. All aspects of the entertainment industry are struggling with this. If I purchase a book and give it to you to read then that is lost potential income for the author. Indeed I'm sure in the cover of most books there is a clause (often ignored) expressly forbidding this. The whole point of copyright law is that the creative developer of the work retains ownership on giving permission for making such copies and can thus profit off it.

    Like I say, If I've ever done it in the past, I at least acknowledge that what I'm doing is wrong and don't try to hide behind silly excuses like "pirates spend more money on original media than non pirates". That might be so, but is doesn't justify your actions.

  7. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    @<u><a href="http://www.edugeek.net/member.php?u=33925" target="_blank">X-13</a></u>, Are you seriously arguing that, regardless of media (movies, music, games, etc), someone who has put in a lot of time and effort creating an original creative work should not be properly compensated for their time, effort and creativity?

    As for greedy publishers. There does seem to be a post iOS trend back towards indie developers that download only gaming seems to have invigorated. This can only be viewed as a good thing.



    Two wrongs don't make a right - as the old saying goes.


    Of course it is! And if I've ever done it, I've done it knowingly!
    iOS has brought the exploitation back into the market, 33% of everything off the top and terms that prevent you from selling it cheaper elsewhere.

    Games publishers do get compensated, you buy a chair from a furniture maker, you have a chair. If you chose to sell it to someone else later the maker has still been paid for that chair.

    This pay per use stuff has been invented by the media companies - thanks Sony, BMG, Apple - where you buy a chair and they will let you sit in it but if you get up they take it back.

    With the games, stores should be paying a higher premium for rentable copies and also renting licence fees just like they do for DVDs based on the amount of rentals.

    The sole thing where I can see it being not smarmy WRT games is those with online content that requires maintenance, in that case the one off cost or even a small subscription for the on going service. Titles like Alan Wake were also fine as these soled for a lower initial cost (about 50%), the first chapter of four and a voucher for the second and if you liked it you could buy the last two separately totalling up to a standard full game cost.

    This licence thing is a big load of BS, sure, can't perform it, can't pass it off as your own work but you can pass the original off to someone else when you are done. Authors aren't so smarmy, they even had dens of state sponsored piracy that they called libraries. All these morally inept scholars would come and bask in the collected culture, sometimes even buying their own copies of works that they really liked.

    Media companies now are different, you need to buy it to try it out and if you don't like it too bad, what happened to civilisation where the shareing of knowledge and culture became some socially unacceptable harracy.


  8. #53

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    But the bottom line is it is illegal to stop a consumer selling on something they have bought. This includes software. So it doesn't matter what the companies think, it is the law. This has been the same for VHS tapes, CDs, DVDs, books, box sets, clothes, cars, houses, whatever. Someone buys something they have a right to sell it on after use and the original company has no claim on any part of that sale.

    The artists should be compensated but there are better targets as stated by X-13. You don't see the Monet estate demanding a cut from the latest sale of his paintings. It is a very recent idea that has been thought up by media companies to try and maximize what they can squeeze out of a customer. Do you really think the artists will see a penny of these extra sales? I bet you 90% will go to the Publisher for miscellaneous expenses.

    As for car parking tickets, yes I stick them on the ticket machine. I have paid for an allotted time so if I do not use all that time then I have the right to dispose of it as I see fit and if I want to gift it to someone as they are only needing a quick 5/10 mins then I do not see that should be a problem. Especially as the carparks often don't give out change, charge silly prices forcing you to need change and often have random time brackets.

  9. #54


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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    If I purchase a book and give it to you to read then that is lost potential income for the author. Indeed I'm sure in the cover of most books there is a clause (often ignored) expressly forbidding this.
    id arque that giving someone a book youve read is actually a good thing for the pubnlisher. Lets say i give away one of my discworld books because ive managed to find a hardcover version so no longer need the paperback (granted i now get them all on kindle but this is what i used to do) i pass it to someone i think might like it they then go out and buy the rest of the series that surely is a net gain to the publisher and they probably wouldnt of bought the 1st book anyway so at no loss they have made lots of sales.

    i can sort of see where publishers are coming from with not liking 2nd hand games but as others have said tough as locking it down to 1 console is a bit draconian what if i want to take halo5 say to a friends house and play it there as they have a bigger tv or whatever i then couldn't unless i lugged the console as well and added to their network etc.

    Yes piracy is an issue but the more restrictive you make it the more its worth copying it in the first place. Look at drm'd music you have to jump through hoops to get it to play where as if you downloaded a "free" copy it would just work or blueray/dvd where you have to sit thorough 30mins of you wouldn't steel a car etc the pirate version has none of this so all they are doing is making piracy a "better" option by effectively disadvantaging genuine customers

  10. #55

    localzuk's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what the argument is here. The EU has already ruled that when someone buys software, they buy a perpetual license to it (unless it is a subscription license), and included in that is a legal right to sell that perpetual license on.

    Once someone sells you something, they lost the right to control it in any way. The recent laws preventing things like rooting or unlocking in the USA go against their concepts of freedom so they are a bit odd, and I doubt they'll hang around for an overly long time.

    Also, it has been shown time and time again that the arguments that second hand sales, rentals or even piracy mean lost sales or reduced profits. In the past, I've pirated movies and games, and later bought them - if they were any good.

    Some games, I've bought multiple copies to support that franchise. I think I've now bought at least 4 copies of most of the Command & Conquer games. I've bought about 30 or so copies of Minecraft (and given them away). I've bought about 5 licenses for EV: Nova, etc...

    So, the issue as far as I can see is not that the consumer is damaging the game companies but that the game companies are damaging themselves.

  11. #56

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  12. #57

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    @localzuk, The arguement is as per the OP and the idea that Sony and Microsoft want to include some kind of DRM in next gen consoles and the merits or other whys of that. I'm effectively posting that I understand the rational MS and Sony have behind doing this and that I agree (if not 100% completely adhere to) the principles of copyright.
    @everyone else, are saying that we are happy with the status quo then? New games costing 50-60?

    In terms of online distribution then, where do we stand with selling on our unwanted copies? And why, if it is, should it be any different to physical media.

    The recent rise in indie gaming, as with indie music artists, is showing that in the long run downloading new original games at around 10-20 new is the way the industry will ultimately go. Out problem, as with the music industry, is that big publishers have too large a grip on distribution and that even in the UK and US the Internet isn't at a stage to support online distribution to all potential end users.

  13. #58

    localzuk's Avatar
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    @tmcd35 - problem is, controls or not, Microsoft and Sony are legally required to allow for second hand sales of software. Oracle learned this last year.

    Also, are you really thinking that prices will come down with this change? If they do, I'll be *very* surprised.

  14. #59

    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    @everyone else, are saying that we are happy with the status quo then? New games costing 50-60?

    The recent rise in indie gaming, as with indie music artists, is showing that in the long run downloading new original games at around 10-20 new is the way the industry will ultimately go. Out problem, as with the music industry, is that big publishers have too large a grip on distribution and that even in the UK and US the Internet isn't at a stage to support online distribution to all potential end users.
    1) try 70 pounds + and not really, if it was remotely close to what the US paid, fine

    2) and films will all be produced with three amature actors and a cellphone. There will still be a market for big emersive games even if that is not you, I'd take CoD over angry birds every day of the week.

  15. #60
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    1) Publishers are not your friends. They are there to wring every penny they can out of you, just look at Bobby Kotick and his comments "Turn a 50 sale into a 150 sale." If anything, the suits running these publisher companies show that they hate gamers with outlandish claims and only tolerate them for their wallets. They also screw over the very studios and developers that created them. *COUGH*NCSOFT*COUGH*

    2) Publishers have been getting away with borderline theft lately. Games are deliberately released unfinished, features scrapped to be bought later on and now this no re-sell malarky.

    3) Ever been to a fair and seen old cartridges for sale? Can't sell modern day games heritage as easily. Say goodbye to your memories...now they have been rehashed as 10 titles on download services. I've bought old carts cheaper then what publishers offer today for classic titles.

    4) Publishers distrust their consumers. Ubisoft made an outlandish claim that 90% of PC titles sold were "pirated" to justify increasingly intrusive DRM. They offer no respect to their consumers and the communities that grow up round their titles.

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