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Educational IT Jobs Thread, What salary? in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; I'm network manager here and have just ben pu on to £18,444. Starting to wonder as I'm seeing other people ...
  1. #61
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    Re: What salary?

    I'm network manager here and have just ben pu on to £18,444. Starting to wonder as I'm seeing other people earning £20,000+ for the same job.

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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk
    I'm on 17.5k. I figure the difference between 'industry' and education is about 20 years of investment leading to anywhere between 15% and 50% difference in pay.

    Where education has invested £1m in ICT, 'industry' have invested £100m...
    The last statement is spot on. 'industry' and you can include the large colleges and universities in that category invest insane amounts of money in their ICT systems - they tend to go for the enterprise kit and stuff that you just don't tend to see in schools....big unix iron, SANs, CRM/ERP, blackboard VLE systems, proper data centers with undefloor cooling......

    In comparison many school setups are a real mickey mouse affair...mainly because of lack of investment and different priorities. But it amazes me the number of schools who use a broom cupboard as the server room and don't even have a proper server rack - thinks like underfloor cooling and SANs are expensive and in some instances overkill - but to see the pap that some of the larger schools with fatter wallets spend in ICT investment is just laughable. 30K-50K Projector and electronic registration installs are all very nice but when in the same shcool your servers occupy pride of place on a table and are cooled by leaving a window or a door open then you know the business manager and head and network manager aren't the brightest sparks.
    Only thing i disagree with there is the network manager not being a bright spark. Yeah it may be the case but there are a number of us who know what best practice is and want to work to it. Its an uphill battle getting that idea past the Business Manager and Head though. Why spend £20k on cooling for servers when they could get 32 low spec pc's.
    "Why upgrade a server? Arent you the only one who uses it?"
    "We need another server? But didnt we buy one last year for email, cant we just use that one?"


    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Majority of school techs tend to stay school techs because enteprises just aren't interested in candidates that haven't even heard of websense or netbackup or clariion - particularly if those candidates have been wrapped in up in dealing with 'NASboxes' and CMIS - or schools techs who have the word D-Link mentioned in their CV.
    OK, if you said CMIS, they might not be interested, but if you put it as "experience of MS SQL and a management information sysem, with a web-based front end". A lot of industries have their on MIS's and pay DBA's a hell of a lot of money for it. Ok, an ICT tech with experience of CMIS probably wouldnt get a job as a DBA using oracle, but they probably wouldnt be applying for that post.

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Companies with half the number of hosts you'll find in a large school invest considerably more in network and server infrastucture and it shows.
    Sadly that is very true.

  3. #63
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    Re: What salary?

    Don't get me wrong, I love my jobs, I like the people, the flexibility, the constant upgrading, etc but with two kids about to go off to University the pay is looking sadly lacking and I may have to make the move for them.

    Torledo is being very dismissive.
    Large secondary schools and colleges have been able to invest in bigger systems and their techs have branched out in ways that are totally unnecessary in primary schools. these children are the ones who are going to be using your systems at some point in their lives, do you think that they don't have to learn some basic skills before they get to you. Having working in primary schools for 9 years now and having dragged some of them very reluctantly into the 20th century and delivered networks into the classrooms from individual PC's that barely had internet access. I have seen that funding goes to the larger schools and bypass the infant and juniors to a great degree.
    Server 2003 is all that is necessary for their needs, NAS is not unknown, I certainly use it but I have to justify every penny I spend on it. Building money is tight, but resources are improving, it's difficult to justify building a server room when you only have two servers and need larger classrooms and toilets. The cost of a server rack is by comparison prohibitive and then I see some secondary has replaced it's server room over the summer, and where did the old equipment and racks go? In the skip.
    I'm happy to take old equipment to tide me over, I've learned not to be too proud to accept hand me down bits of network equipment. Upgrade one place, hand it on to another less fortunate until they can afford it. I have built and manage three networks including Classlink and Ranger so consider yourself fortunate that you don't have to worry about switching hats every day and making sure the mice work so some 5 year old can learn mouse skills, because without us bringing up the much maligned rear, you wouldn't have many users to worry about.
    I'm just wondering what you are putting back into the junior school you attended and whether they are struggling with old PC's and a crumbling network while you spend another small fortune on a new piece of kit.

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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_K_81
    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk
    I'm on 17.5k. I figure the difference between 'industry' and education is about 20 years of investment leading to anywhere between 15% and 50% difference in pay.

    Where education has invested £1m in ICT, 'industry' have invested £100m...
    The last statement is spot on. 'industry' and you can include the large colleges and universities in that category invest insane amounts of money in their ICT systems - they tend to go for the enterprise kit and stuff that you just don't tend to see in schools....big unix iron, SANs, CRM/ERP, blackboard VLE systems, proper data centers with undefloor cooling......

    In comparison many school setups are a real mickey mouse affair...mainly because of lack of investment and different priorities. But it amazes me the number of schools who use a broom cupboard as the server room and don't even have a proper server rack - thinks like underfloor cooling and SANs are expensive and in some instances overkill - but to see the pap that some of the larger schools with fatter wallets spend in ICT investment is just laughable. 30K-50K Projector and electronic registration installs are all very nice but when in the same shcool your servers occupy pride of place on a table and are cooled by leaving a window or a door open then you know the business manager and head and network manager aren't the brightest sparks.
    Only thing i disagree with there is the network manager not being a bright spark. Yeah it may be the case but there are a number of us who know what best practice is and want to work to it. Its an uphill battle getting that idea past the Business Manager and Head though. Why spend £20k on cooling for servers when they could get 32 low spec pc's.
    "Why upgrade a server? Arent you the only one who uses it?"
    "We need another server? But didnt we buy one last year for email, cant we just use that one?"


    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Majority of school techs tend to stay school techs because enteprises just aren't interested in candidates that haven't even heard of websense or netbackup or clariion - particularly if those candidates have been wrapped in up in dealing with 'NASboxes' and CMIS - or schools techs who have the word D-Link mentioned in their CV.
    OK, if you said CMIS, they might not be interested, but if you put it as "experience of MS SQL and a management information sysem, with a web-based front end". A lot of industries have their on MIS's and pay DBA's a hell of a lot of money for it. Ok, an ICT tech with experience of CMIS probably wouldnt get a job as a DBA using oracle, but they probably wouldnt be applying for that post.

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Companies with half the number of hosts you'll find in a large school invest considerably more in network and server infrastucture and it shows.
    Sadly that is very true.
    i take your point regarding SQL, although MIS systems tends to be a catch all term for all data manipulation which is a huge field covering buisness intelligence, data warheousing, reporting etc. Schools MIS is just a specific subset of that but certainly the DBMS skills you've developed managing the SQL backend ARE easily transferable.

    You're right about the attitude of business managers...it's an unfortunate situation but i think some network manager's could try harder at fighting their corner. Although i know sometimes it can be a no-win.

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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Companies with half the number of hosts you'll find in a large school invest considerably more in network and server infrastucture and it shows

    You're right about the attitude of business managers...it's an unfortunate situation but i think some network manager's could try harder at fighting their corner. Although i know sometimes it can be a no-win.
    Although we don't always lose the fight! I have managed to spend quite serious amounts of money on rebuilding the entire infrastructure over the last 3 years. Moved from a "as many computers as possible" to mostly a "as many computers as can be maintained" system.

    I did get a payrise recently (from Scale 6 to SO2) although I did find an almost identical job to the one i'm doing now advertised for around £35k. I'm starting to work towards sucession planning now as I really don't want to leave before I've completed the goals I started with.

    I don't quite have a proper server room yet (I do have 1/2 of one air conditioned). It has a Clariion in it though :P

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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by pallen
    Only for those of you in England...
    Where abouts are you? I am in Scotland so it probably wont help me

  7. #67
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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyletters
    Don't get me wrong, I love my jobs, I like the people, the flexibility, the constant upgrading, etc but with two kids about to go off to University the pay is looking sadly lacking and I may have to make the move for them.

    Torledo is being very dismissive.
    Large secondary schools and colleges have been able to invest in bigger systems and their techs have branched out in ways that are totally unnecessary in primary schools. these children are the ones who are going to be using your systems at some point in their lives, do you think that they don't have to learn some basic skills before they get to you. Having working in primary schools for 9 years now and having dragged some of them very reluctantly into the 20th century and delivered networks into the classrooms from individual PC's that barely had internet access. I have seen that funding goes to the larger schools and bypass the infant and juniors to a great degree.
    Server 2003 is all that is necessary for their needs, NAS is not unknown, I certainly use it but I have to justify every penny I spend on it. Building money is tight, but resources are improving, it's difficult to justify building a server room when you only have two servers and need larger classrooms and toilets. The cost of a server rack is by comparison prohibitive and then I see some secondary has replaced it's server room over the summer, and where did the old equipment and racks go? In the skip.
    I'm happy to take old equipment to tide me over, I've learned not to be too proud to accept hand me down bits of network equipment. Upgrade one place, hand it on to another less fortunate until they can afford it. I have built and manage three networks including Classlink and Ranger so consider yourself fortunate that you don't have to worry about switching hats every day and making sure the mice work so some 5 year old can learn mouse skills, because without us bringing up the much maligned rear, you wouldn't have many users to worry about.
    I'm just wondering what you are putting back into the junior school you attended and whether they are struggling with old PC's and a crumbling network while you spend another small fortune on a new piece of kit.
    We've donated a LOT of older kit to other schools and primaries...
    It's a bottomless pit - sure a lot of it is put to good use but it is never enough and is a plaster to cover a great big gaping wound.

    I'm not really referring to schools like yours and primaries but more about the schools with the larger budgets or schools who seem to miraculously find the funds for a pet project that interests the management team.

    Obviously management couldn't give a toss about proper UPS or servers but i have seen first hand schools who get large ICT budgets year on year or have sudden injections of cash for ICT but spend the money in truly bizarre ways. Of course schools don't have the luxuries that exist in coroporate IT but if you were to be allocated £100,000 this year would you replace your crumbling network, new switches ? replace old PC's, maintenance ? sure that's a priority and you could get it done within that figure. But if you were to get £100,000 the following year would you let some bonehead piss it all on the same old same old (or pda's for techers perhaps) or would you invest in new standards based kit or having a decent server room. Unfortunately i've seen schools continuously go with the same old same old. Plus there's no excuse for not getting great deals from the big vendors with preferential education treatment.

    BTW i said i didn't want to sound like a snob...but i admit it i just am

    Sure i'd like to help my old primary out - but i think what they need more is my experience rather than equipment. With some forethought and good design if/when they get the capital injection for ICT it can be spent in the right areas. Buying and negotiating with suppliers is just as important a skill as unpacking the kit and configuring it. All i'm advising is...do your research, understand about best practice and what products are out there and at what price..so that when the time comes for you to spend a decent wad of cash (it will happen as schools will get unprecedented levels of investment - and the whole cost of toilets excuse won't cut it anymore) you're not left with your trousers down clutching your proverbials...watching while some bright spark buys an lcd screen for every damn wall in the building. But then again 1st phase BSF might come along and save you from making those decisions - but then where'd be the fun in RM or SUN or whovever telling you what you need.

  8. #68
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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by DMcCoy
    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Companies with half the number of hosts you'll find in a large school invest considerably more in network and server infrastucture and it shows

    You're right about the attitude of business managers...it's an unfortunate situation but i think some network manager's could try harder at fighting their corner. Although i know sometimes it can be a no-win.
    Although we don't always lose the fight! I have managed to spend quite serious amounts of money on rebuilding the entire infrastructure over the last 3 years. Moved from a "as many computers as possible" to mostly a "as many computers as can be maintained" system.

    I did get a payrise recently (from Scale 6 to SO2) although I did find an almost identical job to the one i'm doing now advertised for around £35k. I'm starting to work towards sucession planning now as I really don't want to leave before I've completed the goals I started with.

    I don't quite have a proper server room yet (I do have 1/2 of one air conditioned). It has a Clariion in it though :P
    You have a clariion ?

    Two things;
    1) Well done that man
    2) You're not kidding about spending a serious wad of cash if you bought a CX300 (i'm guessing). If you bought a CX3-10c i'd be VERY impressed.
    I bet Dell/EMC know if the arrays overheating before you do!!! in your .5 of a server room

  9. #69
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    Re: What salary?

    CX300, ESX 2.5 only had support for Fibre channel, iscsi had to wait for 3.0

    Its not got that much room, but they are fibre channel drives. I'm running around 20 VMs off it with a Dell blade center.

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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by DMcCoy
    CX300, ESX 2.5 only had support for Fibre channel, iscsi had to wait for 3.0

    Its not got that much room, but they are fibre channel drives. I'm running around 20 VMs off it with a Dell blade center.
    I didn't think the CX300 did multiprotocol (FC and iSCSI) - just assumed the newer CX3 did iscsi also with a feature upgrade.

    That's a very nice little setup..Bladecenter>2gbps FC array (FC drives)>ESX / VI3 server....all you'd need is a brocade or cisco mds in between and you could truly call that 'enterprise'. As it is it's still a hell of a lot more enteprise than 99% of schools. You had a lot of money to spend and you thought a bit out of the box - the result is something that wouldn't look out of place in ANY datacentre anywhere in the world. Plus it has terrific scalability...

    Need another server ? add another blade
    Run out of space ? add more disk
    Run out of disk slots ? add another shelve...Easy!

    I wouldn't mind being the network manager who replaces you...so long as the budget is still there

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    Re: What salary?

    The CX300 is only Fibre channel, but as ESX3 didn't exist it was the best choice We have redundant fibre switch setup. While expansion is limited due to the switches being full, at the time I was pushing everything to get them at all. I have 4 free blade slots for use as terminal servers, the only thing I probably won't virtualise.

    Code:
    Blade1 (ESX3) --- Brocade 3250 --- CX300 SPA
                  --- Brocade 3250 --- CX300 SPB
    
    Blade2 (ESX3) --- Brocade 3250 --- CX300 SPA
                  --- Brocade 3250 --- CX300 SPB

  12. #72
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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by limbo
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly_Transport
    Nobody is working in IT in Education for the money.
    Almost nobody! Some of us do get a competitive salary and to get the equivalent pay in the commercial world would take a lot more hours and a lot more stress.
    and a lot more skill.

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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by torledo
    Quote Originally Posted by limbo
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly_Transport
    Nobody is working in IT in Education for the money.
    Almost nobody! Some of us do get a competitive salary and to get the equivalent pay in the commercial world would take a lot more hours and a lot more stress.
    and a lot more skill.
    Sorry, it's been a long day, but does that mean you need more skill to work in the commerical world?

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    Re: What salary?

    Quote Originally Posted by tech_guy

    Wow, training. You lucky people. You gotta be in a college surely?
    no im sort of hired out to primary schools for a half or full day a week or fortnight, im not 100% sure who i work for tbh Ive yet to see a contract. but I get a wage slip with CAPITA on it.

    I worked in a Big College for 9 years and the training there was rubbish, too scared to send us on a course that could give us a salable skill in case we left.

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    Re: What salary?

    Well after reading the posts here I must say I feel really lucky. I work in a large comp in the Lake District (which is worth a lot in itself). I currently earn £32000 as ICT Technical Manager but that does mean I do all ICT stuff, CCTV, phones and SIMS including census etc. We also support 12 feeder schools. I have 3 techies and they earn 14 to 16k. The best bit is I'm term time + 3 weeks so as long as we have no major upgrades I get about 11 weeks off. The school is also paying for my techies to do foundation degree courses at the local uni. They are also term time + 3.

    All in all that feels like a pretty good deal -- I guess the other bonus is I get involved in lots of other stuff like going away for 2 weeks a year on outdoor pursuits course, organising activity day (extra payment for that), currently producing a play for KS3 kids which all keeps it interesting.

    Could I earn more in industry? Well possibly but then industry is a pretty dull place to be!

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