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Educational IT Jobs Thread, Poor salary and skillset heated discussion in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; You did say that you thought a network manager could not manage a vanilla network due to CC3 (which could ...
  1. #16
    somabc's Avatar
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    You did say that you thought a network manager could not manage a vanilla network due to CC3 (which could be true in general and I think does not deserve an infraction) but you 'implied' that user:Netware could not manage a vanilla network which is unfair as you do not know his whole skillset, hence the infraction.

    It could certainly be true that someone with only experience of CC3 could not do vanilla, the same way someone with only OSX, and OSX Server experience could not manage vanilla XP either.

    ah the stasi...

    Leben der Anderen, Das (2006)
    Last edited by somabc; 25th August 2008 at 01:03 PM.

  2. #17

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    There is Trolling and trolling ... trolling is usually a remark or comment intend to provoke an emotional response ... a bite ... to get others riled. Trolling may actually be done in a tongue in cheek manner to force the topic down a particular direction.

    In the case here, however, the troll always takes a pop at those working with RM tools or working for RM. In the same way those that have been part of conversations that have degenerated into slanging matches and OS wars have had infractions levelled against them, an attack at the general skillset of members working with a particular flavour of middleware , an OS or piece of hardware is not appreciated, not wanted and not tolerated.

    Other members are happy to point out the flaws in these sorts of arguements (and often do ... thanks folks ) but when it gets reported as abuse by fellow members who feel they have been insulted then yes, the admins will take action. Having a go at the admins for responding to abuse (and actually being abusive to them as well) is just plain stupid. In other forums it would be a lock out for a good month ... on IRC our good friend the kickban would come into place ... if you are in the pub and are abusive to the landlord or the staff you get a burly bouncer whispering into your ear that you have a choice of walking through the door or flying.

    EG is a one of the most flexible and forgiving places I have come across, that can have a horrendously long and deep conversation about religion without it degenerating into flaming ... it is rare ... people have commented previously that they feel it may be unfair how the admins step in occasionally, but the fact that we only step in occasionally and deal with each issue on it's own merit is bonus.

    Please, just because you do not like the tools someone may work with, either because of dislike for the company (their products *or* your perceived impression of their morals), dislike of the way a particular school may choose to operate their IT or dislike the opinions of others about the tools they choose ... do *not* presume that they have a limited skillset, that using those tools will kill their skillset or presume that they don't know what they are because they are not using the same skillset in their daily job that you are. There are more than enough examples on here of people working in particular environments but having a wealth of experience elsewhere.

  3. #18


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    I think this quote applies quite nicely to CC3

    This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.
    [Usability] Re: [Desktop_architects] Printing dialog and GNOME

  4. #19
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    I personally am starting to dislike the x > y debates/flame wars....

    it's very counter-productive. You only have to look at the way threads on other tech forums degenerate into a farcical debate about why technology x sucks while proponents of x counter with arguments as to why that isn't the case.....with contributors giving the impression of being experts due to the reeling off of stats and figures. Just the other day i was reading a thread about intel atom vs via's nanothingy....and i became fatigued and disheartened just half way through the thread. Self-interest, ignorance and political [chip maker politics] persuasions influencing the thread. Made me so angry.

    for those sitting on the fence looking for insights they are none the wiser. Who do you beleive, who do you trust ? if you can't do the benchmarks yourself ?

    I think it should be enough for people to respect the decisions of others when it comes to choosing or working with particular technologies....for instance, i have no interest in getting starting with freeBSD, but that doesn't mean that those who are comfortable and willing to pursue with using it shouldn't do so....i'm just of the opinion that it's not my bag and i don't have enough hours in my life to devote to it - not if i've got alternatives which i can choose to use instead. The debate about freeBSD skills and employment prospects can be had - but it's a non-debate....for every person that suggests other skills are more worthy of pursuing, proponents will claim otherwise. Sometimes defending a position quite vehemently.

    At the end of the day most IT decisions come down to a combination of personal preference, existing skillset, budget, and historical reasons. The only issue that matters is whether or not your users and superiors approve of what your doing - and whether your able to get done what is required of you without your work negatively impacting on your life outside work...

    The idea of developing skills that also aid in your future earnings potential is also very important. I sometimes feel edu professionals are martyrs to a cause - you should be defined by your status as an IT pro not by the sector in which you work. Perhaps BSF is starting to ram that point home to some people....it's great looking after the interests of the school and collegaues, but what's most important is to look after numero uno. Makes no difference whether your in the public sector or private sector....the same attitude should still apply. Get on and move up, sometimes you'll be happy sometimes you'll be less than happy - that's life.

  5. 2 Thanks to torledo:

    kingswood (25th August 2008), mac_shinobi (26th August 2008)

  6. #20
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoom7000 View Post
    £25k for a Network Manager in London? That is poor, very poor!
    Why is it that WHENEVER a job is posted, someone ALWAYS has to mention the salary on offer??

    If it doesn't appeal to you, then you have no reason to comment. Do you think by whining about it, you will somehow get it magically increased?

    Moving on...

  7. #21
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    There is Trolling and trolling ... trolling is usually a remark or comment intend to provoke an emotional response ... a bite ... to get others riled
    Such as trolling about the salaries on offer you mean?

    Completely unnecessary, not required, should not be permitted here, but happens every time.

    Whatever is on offer is on offer for whatever reason the employer thinks is right.

    If that offer isn't what you think you are worth, no comment is required, simply don't apply for the job.

    This forum should, IMHO, be made read only so that the JOB ADVERTS don't get lost in the 'argument' that follows.

    Discuss wages and the jobs attached to them somewhere else.

  8. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tx2online View Post
    Such as trolling about the salaries on offer you mean?

    Completely unnecessary, not required, should not be permitted here, but happens every time.

    Whatever is on offer is on offer for whatever reason the employer thinks is right.

    If that offer isn't what you think you are worth, no comment is required, simply don't apply for the job.

    This forum should, IMHO, be made read only so that the JOB ADVERTS don't get lost in the 'argument' that follows.

    Discuss wages and the jobs attached to them somewhere else.
    But this is the job related post and in the right category as well, so where do think they should discuss this other than this category?

    Ash.

  9. #23
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tx2online View Post
    Such as trolling about the salaries on offer you mean?

    Completely unnecessary, not required, should not be permitted here, but happens every time.

    Whatever is on offer is on offer for whatever reason the employer thinks is right.

    If that offer isn't what you think you are worth, no comment is required, simply don't apply for the job.

    This forum should, IMHO, be made read only so that the JOB ADVERTS don't get lost in the 'argument' that follows.

    Discuss wages and the jobs attached to them somewhere else.
    I have to agree with you there. As you say, if someone doesn't like the salary or other aspects of the job just click the back button and forget about it. There will always be takers for IT jobs, if you don't fancy it someone else most certainly will....i don't see the point in making negative comments.

  10. #24
    theeldergeek
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashok View Post
    But this is the job related post and in the right category as well, so where do think they should discuss this other than this category?
    AIUI, this forum is for posting job vacancies, notably in this instance by an Edugeek sponsor, and not thereafter for the berating of salaries on offer, skill sets, or any other matter.

    Where should it be discussed? Let's have a new forum perhaps? Why? So those who are trying to find new staff to fill posts are able to do so uninterrupted in a forum which is not, IMHO, serving the purpose for which it, AIUI, was originally intended but has become somewhere to criticise others who are offering jobs, their skill set, or anything else which really has nothing to do with those who would never have any intention of applying for the position in the first place.

    Personally, were I a site sponsor and I'd posted a thread which had - in a very short time - descended into requiring moderator involvement, I'd be seriously considering why I was actually bothering to sponsor and put my name to such in the first place.

    </rant>

    Can we clarify, therefore, your position on this?

    Do you think it is acceptable that when someone posts to this forum a job vacancy, the 'critics' should then move in, berate the salary, the job, the skills required and such like, taking focus completely away from the intention of the original post?

    Or would you prefer to see a separate forum in which the job vacancy may be openly referenced, and any 'discussion' about such is freely had, therefore not detracting from the original post in this, the Educational IT Jobs forum?

    One wonders what the Guardian Newspaper's job section would look like if they allowed 'comments' on positions offered...

    I think I've made it clear what I think.

  11. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmount View Post
    I think the point is more that you were putting someone down because they worked on a CC3 network, rather than RM itself.

    I work on a CC3 network but that doesn't mean that's my entire skill set given I yesterday answered your own question about the Asus EeePC and T-Mobile dongle on Linux.


    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    There is Trolling and trolling ... trolling is usually a remark or comment intend to provoke an emotional response ... a bite ... to get others riled. Trolling may actually be done in a tongue in cheek manner to force the topic down a particular direction.

    In the case here, however, the troll always takes a pop at those working with RM tools or working for RM. In the same way those that have been part of conversations that have degenerated into slanging matches and OS wars have had infractions levelled against them, an attack at the general skillset of members working with a particular flavour of middleware , an OS or piece of hardware is not appreciated, not wanted and not tolerated.

    Other members are happy to point out the flaws in these sorts of arguements (and often do ... thanks folks ) but when it gets reported as abuse by fellow members who feel they have been insulted then yes, the admins will take action. Having a go at the admins for responding to abuse (and actually being abusive to them as well) is just plain stupid. In other forums it would be a lock out for a good month ... on IRC our good friend the kickban would come into place ... if you are in the pub and are abusive to the landlord or the staff you get a burly bouncer whispering into your ear that you have a choice of walking through the door or flying.

    EG is a one of the most flexible and forgiving places I have come across, that can have a horrendously long and deep conversation about religion without it degenerating into flaming ... it is rare ... people have commented previously that they feel it may be unfair how the admins step in occasionally, but the fact that we only step in occasionally and deal with each issue on it's own merit is bonus.

    Please, just because you do not like the tools someone may work with, either because of dislike for the company (their products *or* your perceived impression of their morals), dislike of the way a particular school may choose to operate their IT or dislike the opinions of others about the tools they choose ... do *not* presume that they have a limited skillset, that using those tools will kill their skillset or presume that they don't know what they are because they are not using the same skillset in their daily job that you are. There are more than enough examples on here of people working in particular environments but having a wealth of experience elsewhere.

    i could of not put this any other way GrumbleDook & Kmount has put this , especially when someone who does not even know me from Adam, has no idea of my skills set or qualifications that I have, decides to take a pop at me because I manage a CC3 & and Vanilla network…. I think I better not say anymore and I hope people can at least respect each other rather then taking them for an idiot , which really annoys me….this forum for me here is about helping each other out when we hit a brickwall as no body know everything ………..i hope this debates ends now, as I have seen so many CC3 Vs Vanilla discussions go on here that goes out of hand

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    There is Trolling and trolling ... trolling is usually a remark or comment intend to provoke an emotional response ... a bite ... to get others riled. Trolling may actually be done in a tongue in cheek manner to force the topic down a particular direction.
    You know you above statement could apply to any judgemental conversation on the planet

    So from now on we have to be Zombified and have no feeling as if we do we might evoke an emotional response..

    This means we cannot take a pop and anything because it might get an emotional response..

    I thought the moderators were a bit more mature than being just base.

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tx2online View Post
    Why is it that WHENEVER a job is posted, someone ALWAYS has to mention the salary on offer??

    If it doesn't appeal to you, then you have no reason to comment. Do you think by whining about it, you will somehow get it magically increased?

    Moving on...
    Isn't that classed as Trolling as the writer is trying to get an emotional response about the low pay and job advertised.. ??

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Netware View Post
    i could of not put this any other way GrumbleDook & Kmount has put this , especially when someone who does not even know me from Adam, has no idea of my skills set or qualifications that I have, decides to take a pop at me because I manage a CC3 & and Vanilla network…. I think I better not say anymore and I hope people can at least respect each other rather then taking them for an idiot , which really annoys me….this forum for me here is about helping each other out when we hit a brickwall as no body know everything ………..i hope this debates ends now, as I have seen so many CC3 Vs Vanilla discussions go on here that goes out of hand
    Oh please stop being a drama queen... I don't know you from adam and my first response was not at you at all it was towards CC3 and RM only....

    You then decided to respond by saying that you can run a vanilla network and only then did I make a crack about Exchange and then the crap hit the fan because the Stazi deemed that I was trolling and therefore got hit with an infraction...


    Some people really know how to make an mountain of of a mole hill and sit up their with their holier than thou attitude..

    and yes I am angry at how PATHETIC the moderation of this forum has become....

    I would write more but I would be banned... right now I am seething at the attitude of _RIC_ and Grumbledook.. it seems that they think that their poo don't stink..

    And then you get the rest of the admins... bit like the over zealous bouncer that GD was talking about CAUSING a dispute (like _RIC_ has) and the rest of the bouncers jump blindly in kicking out the poor punter who really meant no offence at all..


  15. #29

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Taken to PM, thread locked and will be split later to allow for further discussion separate to the original job advert (it is now *way* off topic!)

    Edit - Thread split and original section opened up again purely for queries about the advert. This thread will still remain closed for the time being.



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