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  1. #46

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Just read through this thread with great interest. I am today officially starting my great search for my next role - whatever it maybe. IMHO the OP attitude seems a little off (which never helps in the search for work), but a do sympathise with his dilemma.

    I thought I'd comment here on the general conundrum that is the UK IT sector at the moment. As an industry we appear to have locked ourselves in a experience/qualifications paradox. Getting work in IT seems to be getting harder and harder as employers demand Degrees, MSCE's, Cisco, Exchange and 7+ years on the job experience for a £18k a year post changing back-up tape media!

    Add to this that 90% of jobs in this industry appear to be London based and you then need to factor in the costs of commuting before you apply for the one job that sounds right.

    For my part I have a list of website that I regularly check - local county council, neighbouring county council, regional daily newspaper (better than buying it each week), edugeek, SpecialAgent, reed, monster, BCS.

    I have to admit I, with some experience and a degree, am as disheartened as the OP with the number of jobs that match my wage/work/location ratio. For my part Exchange and Cisco experience and ITIL qualifications appear to be the main stumbling blocks. Having just done a VMWare course I can't currently afford to retrain in any of these three fields

  2. #47
    Midget's Avatar
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    Why would you need to do an exchange course? what's so difficult about exchange?

    A year long nightschool Cisco course is highly recommended by me to get greater understanding of networking.

    The main problem with IT in the UK is CompuTeach and all the other "no experiance? need a job? retrain in IT and get a £30kpa job" companies pumping out loads of people with no knowledge leading to employers requesting 7+ years experiance and real qualifications (degree, cisco, MS, RedHat etc) instead of a CompuTeach ICanDoComputersMe Diploma.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    Getting work in IT seems to be getting harder and harder as employers demand Degrees, MSCE's, Cisco, Exchange and 7+ years on the job experience for a £18k a year post changing back-up tape media!
    Okay, so in people's opinion, what qualifications/certifications offer the best "return on investment", if you like - what's the best exam or course to spend your money on if you're like the original poster and somewhat strapped for cash? And let's get back to what was basically his original question: is "the IT industry" still worth the bother, or if you want to earn money are you better off doing something else?

    It strikes me that you might do just as well to skip the looking-for-a-job step and instead set yourself up as a consultant or small business and go straight to the paid-by-the-hour consultancy business. Being a consultant seems to mainly involve convincing management types to hand over money, I've met some really thick consultants in the past who couldn't actually do anything much useful.

    --
    David Hicks

  4. #49
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    Infrastructure jobs tend to be jack-of-all-trades, and/or not fantastically well paid. So when a company advertises for a MCSE and/or CCNA, they know they can offer 30k odd and get people with Exchange, ISA, w2k3, cisco etc. experience and training. And there are loads of them about, irrespective of the numbers doing intensive MCSA and CCNA courses for career-changers and the unemployed.

    To stand out you really either need a wealth of experience and preferably experience on big implentations.

    Whereas if your skills sets are more focused in particular areas, you'd still need that big project experience, but you wouldn't need such a diverse range of skillsets.

    VMware is one of those areas that will continue to be in demand, but many VMware roles need that experience with the various server operating systems, DBMS, and Email systems aswell as SANs becuase they are not technology islands. In a big org, with dedicated teams for these different connected parts you could concentrate on being a VMware specialist....but most jobs want more all round skills from their VMWare engineers. Same goes for citrix, you could be a citrix specialist because of the scale of the citrix implementation...but most orgs want skills in other areas for positions that require citrix expertise.

    Most of the specialist jobs are down south, but there are specialism in the public sector and at locations outside london. My advise is to get in somewhere where you can be trained and get experienced in a particular specialism. I personally want to avoid being a general IS bod, i want to do something more targeted where i can focus all my attentions rather than being pulled in all sorts of different directions....my not be as fun, but better for the stress levels and potentially a good earner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    Okay, so in people's opinion, what qualifications/certifications offer the best "return on investment", if you like - what's the best exam or course to spend your money on if you're like the original poster and somewhat strapped for cash? And let's get back to what was basically his original question: is "the IT industry" still worth the bother, or if you want to earn money are you better off doing something else?

    It strikes me that you might do just as well to skip the looking-for-a-job step and instead set yourself up as a consultant or small business and go straight to the paid-by-the-hour consultancy business. Being a consultant seems to mainly involve convincing management types to hand over money, I've met some really thick consultants in the past who couldn't actually do anything much useful.

    --
    David Hicks
    it takes time, but assuming each course is around £110 (book + exam) i'd recommend doing the mcsa.

  6. #51

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Why would you need to do an exchange course? what's so difficult about exchange?
    If it's anything any other technology within Windows Server then it's probably something I could pick up the basics of with in a few ours of mindless button clicking and be competent in using after a week or so.
    HR types don't understand this so unless you've got 'built/used/managed Exchange server for 10+yrs' on your CV or the relevant MSCE, they're just not interested.

    Okay, so in people's opinion, what qualifications/certifications offer the best "return on investment", if you like - what's the best exam or course to spend your money
    As much as it pains me to say it - MCSE - followed by CISCO and ITIL. I've always refused to do an MCSE as it cost too much and I see it has worthless considering the number of 'paper techs' with no experience it has generated. But it's what employers look for. Got 30yrs experience? without an MCSE it counts for nothing! Maybe it's time for me to change my attitude and show willing - get a MCE?
    Funally enough though, the MCSE without 7+ yrs on the job also seems to be worthless. Employers seem to want both Qualifactions and Experience - chicken and egg - you can't one without having the other first but you cant get a job without both?!?

    ITIL seems to be rearing it's ugly head in the HR world. I've seen quite a few jobs that ask for ITIL qualifications. Bare in mind that ITIL is a set of guidelines and best practices and not a rule book and this too looks like a over valued qualifications we are forced to pursue in order to get the job we can already easily do with out it.

    Of the three the qualification I see value in, want to do, is the CISCO. But I need a new job first so I can afford to go on a course!

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhicks View Post
    Okay, so in people's opinion, what qualifications/certifications offer the best "return on investment", if you like - what's the best exam or course to spend your money on if you're like the original poster and somewhat strapped for cash? And let's get back to what was basically his original question: is "the IT industry" still worth the bother, or if you want to earn money are you better off doing something else?

    It strikes me that you might do just as well to skip the looking-for-a-job step and instead set yourself up as a consultant or small business and go straight to the paid-by-the-hour consultancy business. Being a consultant seems to mainly involve convincing management types to hand over money, I've met some really thick consultants in the past who couldn't actually do anything much useful.

    --
    David Hicks
    I think IT is still worth it, but like with most areas of work, you need to put the travel and hours in, inorder to get on and be really successful. As a contractor the work doesn't come to you...even if your doing well as a web designer you need to make those trips to clients. And invest in the trainign.

    If your good you'll do well in IT, in whichever role.

    It's so hard to judge what the best return on investment is....some of tthe most lucrative areas you can't study at home becuase you need highly specialized training - and becuase the software is just too big and complex to start installing in a VM or the documentation is lacking for newbs. If you haven't gotten on to a track after uni with an employer, the best bet is to get your foot in the door with an employer who privde IT services or a large company with expensive IT implementations. You could start off as a tape changer, but through enthusiasm and the ability to learn quickly and an eye and ear for the opportunity you could end up working on projects and in teams that make IT a very rewarding career. Who you know and how you communicate certainly helps.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    Simple question - How am I supposed to pay for it when on Job Seekers Allowance?
    After 6 months ask to be sent on a Free unemployed CISCO course..

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    What bit don't you get. I CANNOT GET A JOB!!!!!!!!!! I cannot even get one stacking shelves because I'm over qualified. Have been told this by 2 local supermarkets. Sorry But I'm really getting fed up now.
    Do you have a car or a bike ?? as there are lots of jobs for delivery drivers all over the place..

    Stop loading your CV with qualifications and adapt your CV for the roles applied..

    This is why you can't get a job...

    I left this position in December to become my former partner’s full time carer.
    This shows that you are not stable and have home issues and if you walked out of a job after a year why should the prospective employer invest time and mony in you when you might do the same thing..

    And this as well

    but after an accident in 1991 in which my knee was severely injured– I was required to spend several years in rehabilitation and was unable to return to my previous occupation.
    Shows you have a medical waekness .. why should an employer take a chance on you falling over and suing the asses off of them??

    Take it out mate.... they don't want to hear about your personal problems... they want to employ superman to maintain there very valuable and mission critical network.... not someone who has partner issues and a dodgy leg..

    I would bin your CV on the spot.. no-one in their right mind would employ you with that on your CV.... to mauch risk..

    And yes mate they do not know you.. so they do not care about you all they care about is their company... so what can you offer their company ?
    Last edited by Grommit; 5th August 2008 at 02:25 PM.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    As much as it pains me to say it - MCSE - followed by CISCO and ITIL.

    Funally enough though, the MCSE without 7+ yrs on the job also seems to be worthless. Employers seem to want both Qualifactions and Experience - chicken and egg - you can't one without having the other first but you cant get a job without both?!?

    ITIL seems to be rearing it's ugly head in the HR world. I've seen quite a few jobs that ask for ITIL qualifications. Bare in mind that ITIL is a set of guidelines and best practices and not a rule book and this too looks like a over valued qualifications we are forced to pursue in order to get the job we can already easily do with out it.

    Of the three the qualification I see value in, want to do, is the CISCO. But I need a new job first so I can afford to go on a course!
    I don't entirely agree. A microsoft cert is fine married with experience. But i think the new MCTS and MCPIT - system admin provide better value than the old MCSA and MCSE. The new certs 1 and 3 exams respectively....i don't think the MCSE was ever good value or a good return because of the competition and relatively modest salaries.

    CCNA is a good one, agree about ITIL, would add project management to that aswell. Not sure if ITIL has a project management element.

  11. #56

    tmcd35's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    CCNA is a good one, agree about ITIL, would add project management to that aswell. Not sure if ITIL has a project management element.
    PRINCE is the project management half of ITIL. ITIL is for helpdesks, IT departments good practice. I have a couple of ITIL books at home and have been thinking about going for it - but I view with the same disdain as the MCSE. I know I shouldn't it'd probably help my career no end if I went for ITIL and MCP certs.

    But, I'd rather wait and save and do the CCNA when I can afford it instead. Until then I'm hoping to get something out of my VCP (fingers crossed)

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    I'd like to do the PRINCE2 qualification at some point. Can't see the point of doing Information Technology Infrastructure Library (ITIL) Qual because it's just another fad, which will probably be replaced in a few years by EITIL or some such, or people will start using some ISO documents or other.
    Last edited by Midget; 5th August 2008 at 02:30 PM.

  13. #58
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    I've been working in IT for over 7 years now, and personally the interview and jobs I have had dont require alot.

    None of my roles in the past asked for MSCE's or CISCO stuff and personally its not that hard to get a IT job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialAgent View Post
    If you wanna get me your cv I'll see what we have currently although I don't think we have anything close to ramsgate at the moment, I don't have too much success in kent but you never know


    william@specialagent.co.uk 08701 612 007
    Hasn't Kent been handed over to Northgate so there would be no ICT Jobs there unless through Northgate or a Private school ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by IanT View Post
    I've been working in IT for over 7 years now, and personally the interview and jobs I have had dont require alot.

    None of my roles in the past asked for MSCE's or CISCO stuff and personally its not that hard to get a IT job.
    depends on how old you are.... 35 and above is looked at as old men in the ICT Industry and not really employable

    Too old at 35?

    One in 10 of the workers who told researchers they had been victims of ageism were between 35 and 40 years old.
    BBC NEWS | UK | Ageism hits Generation X?

    Ageism in IT: Over 40? Forget about getting a job

    One reader wrote his job search stalled because "at 37 I am too old [for IT] and have been told so by a number of agencies".

    Another wrote that when a company "found out how old I was they said they couldn't take me as their policy was not to employ anyone over 35".

    A 40-year-old reader from Surrey noted a change in his luck when, after a six-month job search, he stopped telling employers his age. He wrote: "On Monday this week I decided to remove my date of birth from my CV, and to cut a long story short, had a job offer by Wednesday."

    From what we heard, the problem can have more to do with head hunters than with internal company HR.
    Ageism in IT: Over 40? Forget about getting a job - Management - Breaking Business and Technology News at silicon.com

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