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Cloud Services Thread, Goodbye 'Safe' Harbour in Technical; POTUS says no, wasn't it great when countries at least pretended to care about jurisdiction. Global governments, the tech sector, ...
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    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Goodbye 'Safe' Harbour

    POTUS says no, wasn't it great when countries at least pretended to care about jurisdiction.

    Global governments, the tech sector, and scholars are closely following a legal flap in which the US Justice Department claims that Microsoft must hand over e-mail stored in Dublin, Ireland. In essence, President Barack Obama's administration claims that any company with operations in the United States must comply with valid warrants for data, even if the content is stored overseas. It's a position Microsoft and companies like Apple say is wrong, arguing that the enforcement of US law stops at the border. A magistrate judge has already sided with the government's position, ruling in April that "the basic principle that an entity lawfully obligated to produce information must do so regardless of the location of that information." Microsoft appealed to a federal judge, and the case is set to be heard on July 31.
    Obama administration says the world

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    The patriot act has always trumped EU law and always will.

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    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edutech4schools View Post
    The patriot act has always trumped EU law and always will.
    Just one more nail

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    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    They'll come to regret this posturing and strong-arming when the developing world gets connected enough that it becomes economically viable to ignore the US as a market online.

    /dreams of the day

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    Its why China is having a backlash at US software and hardware.

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    flyinghaggis's Avatar
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    I've always suspected that the EU safe harbour rules wouldn't be worth the paper they're written on when dealing with US companies. Even if the US government backs down or loses the case would you ever really have faith that Google/MS/Apple wouldn't be forced behind the scenes to hand over their data regardless of where it's stored if the US government asked them to?

    Ultimately, surely where the servers are located is of less importance than who manages or has access to them!

    all-your-data-are-belong-to-us.jpg

    It'll be interesting to see how it plays out though...
    Last edited by flyinghaggis; 15th July 2014 at 01:51 PM.

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    seawolf's Avatar
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    It must be nice living in a dreamworld where the EU or the UK is the "nice guy" who doesn't do the stuff that "bad guy" the US does. Except - that they do, and have, and will likely continue to do so in the future. The UK and every other EU country has done some real nasty stuff over its history (including the not too distant past) and likely still is behind closed doors. They all do. A holier than thou attitude towards the US won't get anyone anywhere - except exasperated.

    Besides that, even if you disagree with what the US Govt. is trying to do in this case, it also wouldn't be good if the law allowed any company to simply store all of its data in another country and then be able to thwart any subpoenas, investigations, audits, etc. into criminal behaviour by that company or it's customers. That would provide open slather for allowing corruption, bribery, corporate espionage, money laundering, etc. that kind of thing goes on often enough without making it even easier for them.

    It wouldn't be good for the dial to be moved too far in either direction. You have to try to see it from both sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sonofsanta View Post
    They'll come to regret this posturing and strong-arming when the developing world gets connected enough that it becomes economically viable to ignore the US as a market online.

    /dreams of the day
    At that point in time, the UK would also be less than insignificant in the world market. #BeCarefulWhatYouWish4

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    flyinghaggis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    It wouldn't be good for the dial to be moved too far in either direction. You have to try to see it from both sides.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not under the illusion that our government/country is any better/worse than another but I think the US being given automatic access to other countries citizens and companies date purely by virtue of it being held by a US company is a step too far. By all means countries' governments should share data to prevent the illegal activities taking place across borders but the US is basically arguing to get access to this without the need to discuss it with anyone else first.

    From what I've read the EU safe harbour law was created specifically to prevent this exact scenario and the US is looking for ways to bypass it. I don't think you could ever argue that kind of activity is actually a good thing for us here in the UK!

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    seawolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyinghaggis View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not under the illusion that our government/country is any better/worse than another but I think the US being given automatic access to other countries citizens and companies date purely by virtue of it being held by a US company is a step too far. By all means countries' governments should share data to prevent the illegal activities taking place across borders but the US is basically arguing to get access to this without the need to discuss it with anyone else first.

    From what I've read the EU safe harbour law was created specifically to prevent this exact scenario and the US is looking for ways to bypass it. I don't think you could ever argue that kind of activity is actually a good thing for us here in the UK!
    The US-EU Safe Harbour act always was for all intents and purposes smoke and mirrors. The idea is difficult in theory and completely unworkable in practice. In a global economy with data flowing all around the world and moving across various routers, switches, servers, databases, backups, etc. it is impossible to provide surety that companies are meeting the requirements and in actual practice it is almost certain NONE of them were. The reason it was put in place is that EU businesses and governments would be severely hindered, probably crippled if they had to implement the EU Data Protection standards in all business dealings. The EU would become a closed market having isolated itself from the rest of the world due to the onerous and unrealistic data protection laws. The EU knows this, which is why the smoke and mirrors were put in place "look away, there is no man behind the curtain...".

    I believe that the US, or any country for that matter, should have the right to demand data be provided on a resident or citizen of that country (US in this case) under court order - regardless of where that data is stored. Countries should not have the right; however, to demand access to the data of other countries citizens and residents even by court order without approval by the other countries government or courts. Exceptions to that might be "rogue" nations such as North Korea, Syria, etc. where agreement would never be given by said country and the information is legitimately needed for national security reasons (which should still come through a court subpoena).

    It shouldn't be open slather though, and that's where the balance needs to come in. The EU data protection laws are unworkable though for any foreign company (and probably many EU companies if they were honest about it), so the EU realistically has to make a choice to either become digital hermits in the world or to be a little more realistic about what is actually possible and workable.

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    sonofsanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    At that point in time, the UK would also be less than insignificant in the world market. #BeCarefulWhatYouWish4
    Aren't we already? Any standing we have on the world stage is the global political equivalent of smiling and nodding when Mad Grandpa starts up with "Back in my day..." at the dinner table.

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    Galway's Avatar
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    I think America needs to understand which part of the rock they occupy. While they are at it they need to understand the 'fighting terrorists' does not give you a licence stomp over peoples right to privacy by gathering intelligence on them. Talk about double standards, the USA is a joke and a bad one at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    the USA is a joke and a bad one at that.
    11 operational Carrier Strike Groups. It's no joke when one of those sets sail your way.

    And GCHQ are very naughty : Hacking Online Polls and Other Ways British Spies Seek to Control the Internet.

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    seawolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galway View Post
    I think America needs to understand which part of the rock they occupy. While they are at it they need to understand the 'fighting terrorists' does not give you a licence stomp over peoples right to privacy by gathering intelligence on them. Talk about double standards, the USA is a joke and a bad one at that.
    ermmm...if you think other countries aren't doing exactly the same thing, think again. They might be better at hiding it or haven't had an Edward Snowden pop their head up yet, but they are or would do it if they could.

    In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, and probably the most sane thing he ever said
    "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

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    SYNACK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
    ermmm...if you think other countries aren't doing exactly the same thing, think again. They might be better at hiding it or haven't had an Edward Snowden pop their head up yet, but they are or would do it if they could.

    In the immortal words of Ronald Reagan, and probably the most sane thing he ever said

    What worries me more is that their companies end up bribing their way through their governments strong arming to rewrite laws in other countries like Australia and New Zealand. They need to stop letting their corporations bully everyone including their own citizens with the laws meant to protect them.

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