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Cloud Services Thread, Google admits data mining student emails in its free education apps in Technical; Originally Posted by ZeroHour o365 is a platform based on exchange + sharepoint, both have no ability to scan you ...
  1. #46

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroHour View Post
    o365 is a platform based on exchange + sharepoint, both have no ability to scan you email contents. Outlook.com also does not scan email contents to target ad's as they have declaired.
    I'm afraid to say that this statement seems a little naive. Exchange has capability to scan emails - for whatever reason! The thing you've got right now is that Microsoft say they won't do it and the system isn't set to do it.

    Google had stated they didnt mine email but updated the terms I believe to remove that and have literally declared in California they do mine pupil email data to target ad's.
    Just as Microsoft say they won't. They're both claims made, and Microsoft can happily change the terms at their leisure.

  2. #47

    sparkeh's Avatar
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    So...given that MS have said they can't ensure that data won't leave the EU where do we stand with O365?

    Can either Google Apps or O365 be used and comply with our responsibilities? *head spinning*

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    So they mine emails for ad targeting.
    What is so bad about that?

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    sparkeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jakey View Post
    So they mine emails for ad targeting.
    What is so bad about that?
    Without wishing to sound 'funny', did you read any of this thread ^^

  5. #50

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    I'm afraid to say that this statement seems a little naive. Exchange has capability to scan emails - for whatever reason! The thing you've got right now is that Microsoft say they won't do it and the system isn't set to do it.
    I think its a bit naive to think basic scanning equates to a whole ad platform based on the premise, it requires considerably more work and unless Microsoft. Outlook.com has never used that type of ad's and Microsoft shout the point out to help differentiate from Google.

    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    Just as Microsoft say they won't. They're both claims made, and Microsoft can happily change the terms at their leisure.
    Well Google did it on the quiet, have you been getting consent from parents for the scanning as Google (I believe) requires in the USA?

  6. #51

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkeh View Post
    So...given that MS have said they can't ensure that data won't leave the EU where do we stand with O365?

    Can either Google Apps or O365 be used and comply with our responsibilities? *head spinning*
    Both can be used as per Safe Harbour (covering the data moving) but only one doesn't build an ad profile based on your email, Google appear to require the school to get consent from parents/end user before issuing accounts to sidestep the fact that ad's on youtube etc could be based on email the pupils have been sent.
    The fact the terms were updated stealthily without clarity really doesn't help, the only reason I think it was picked up on was because Google had to state before the court in California what happened with pupil data.

    Just to add, Google was being sued in the USA for this but the class action fell apart as there were too many parties with different scenarios I believe, it will be curios to see if the apps in edu lot reform their own direct class action. Non-Gmail users suing Google for "wiretapping" denied class action | Ars Technica
    Last edited by ZeroHour; 21st March 2014 at 03:26 PM.

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  8. #52

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroHour View Post
    I think its a bit naive to think basic scanning equates to a whole ad platform based on the premise, it requires considerably more work and unless Microsoft. Outlook.com has never used that type of ad's and Microsoft shout the point out to help differentiate from Google.
    You're still predecating your view on what Microsoft say and do now. Who knows what will happen in the future. The thing is, Microsoft have clauses in their terms and conditions, just like Google, saying they can change things.

    Well Google did it on the quiet, have you been getting consent from parents for the scanning as Google (I believe) requires in the USA?
    I don't use any cloud based solution - they're all too risky now IMO.

  9. #53

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    You're still predecating your view on what Microsoft say and do now. Who knows what will happen in the future. The thing is, Microsoft have clauses in their terms and conditions, just like Google, saying they can change things.
    Saying "we should wait till the end of time incase they update their terms" doesn't really move things forward. I also would expect Outlook/Hotmail to get the targeting before o365 was targeted with mail scanning ad's but considering MS makes major claims against Google regarding this it would be a pretty huge backtrack and risk mass moving of customers. Even if they did it would only make them as bad as Google, not necessarily worse.
    Currently as things stand Microsoft state clearly they won't and they state they will inform you if anything changes terms wise, Google on the other hand has been caught stealthily updating terms and being forced to admit "yeah we mine apps email to target ad's on other google platforms, it cant be turned off" which is kinda the opposite of what a lot of people thought.
    You may believe MS will do build a new advert platform, update everyones terms on the stealth and have no option to prevent the mining in the future but I doubt it myself.

    EDIT: w00t finally I got a double post to help diagnose that problem
    Last edited by ZeroHour; 21st March 2014 at 03:35 PM.

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    AButters (21st March 2014)

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    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroHour View Post
    Saying "we should wait till the end of time incase they update their terms" doesn't really move things forward. I also would expect Outlook/Hotmail to get the targeting before o365 was targeted with mail scanning ad's but considering MS makes major claims against Google regarding this it would be a pretty huge backtrack and risk mass moving of customers. Even if they did it would only make them as bad as Google, not necessarily worse.
    Currently as things stand Microsoft state clearly they won't and they state they will inform you if anything changes terms wise, Google on the other hand has been caught stealthily updating terms and being forced to admit "yeah we mine apps email to target ad's on other google platforms, it cant be turned off" which is kinda the opposite of what a lot of people thought.
    You may believe MS will do build a new advert platform, update everyones terms on the stealth and have no option to prevent the mining in the future but I doubt it myself.
    I'm not saying that, I'm saying we should not treat one company differently to another when they both have similar terms in their contracts. The actions of one don't determine that another will or won't do something, but the terms and conditions should be read and considered properly. As it stands, I personally do not believe we should be using either Google or O365 - especially until the EU concludes its investigation into the issues.

    Which is a change in position to where I stood 2 years ago when I was a lot more pro-GApps etc...

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    I'm pretty sure it's not just Gmail that is a Data Protection headache for Schools in a relationship with Google. Google is also a search engine, and students make extensive use of it to search and follow links from. Google analytics follows them all over the web, in school and at home. Data we have provided to Google in order to provide us with a service is now linked with a particular browsing history. Is any of that browsing history part of our DPA responsibility? What about the history on personal devices which might be associated with a GA4E school logon?

    We have advertising turned off on the Domain and we don't use GMail. But I still get advertising to my work email from Google. A few items have really had me scratching my head trying to figure out how they knew things.

    What about when Granddad is served an Ad telling him what his granddaughter needs to help her at school so he can buy it from these sponsored links for her birthday next tuesday? We provided some of that data to Google to provide a service to us and if a data subject demands that we delete all the instances of that data, or correct it, we are powerless. Half the time we can't even make a meaningful contact at Google to get them to sell us something. You need to be a government to get Googles attention, even they seem to struggle.

    Part of the problem is perhaps the law. The DPA is 15 years old (grumpy teenager), relevant European regulation is only slightly more recent. How well do they really stack up in a Big Data world?

  14. #56

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    -so the only way of them getting the money back to fund this is through advertising.-

    But they do not serve adds to education.

    Starting to think a few posters might work for ms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edutech4schools View Post
    -so the only way of them getting the money back to fund this is through advertising.-

    But they do not serve adds to education.
    I'm not sure what your point is. They serve ads to people. Advertisers pay for that. Advertisers don't care if they serve ads when the user is in the context of an education domain. Google makes money out of knowing about the product they sell. That product is you, not the software or service you are using. They will serve the ads to you when you are not within an education domain and they will target those using data they gathered when you were in the 'context' of that domain. The gmails you sent. The gmails you received. The searches you did. The sites you visited. The pages you visited.
    Starting to think a few posters might work for ms.
    That kind of comment is commonly known as ad-homien, it doesn't address the points raised, just tries to attack the posters. "a few" isn't even brave enough to single out individuals, let alone a whole post or a single point. Come on edutech4schools, step up to the plate and tackle the actual issues here! Otherwise we might start to think you work for Google!

  16. #58

    ZeroHour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edutech4schools View Post
    -so the only way of them getting the money back to fund this is through advertising.-

    But they do not serve adds to education.

    Starting to think a few posters might work for ms.
    They dont serve ad's in google apps email for education, but they do mine the email to target ad's for that user across all other things google. Thats what appears to be the case at least. Imagine a pupil gets an email about poor maths then they browse youtube and potentially have ad's targeted for things like "bad at maths, let us help with XYZ course"
    I have seen targeted ad's based on my gmail email I have got and not just targeted on gmail, it applies across all google services and google adsense which is everywhere.

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    Im sorry but I don't understand the fuss. Google offers to store potentially hundreds of Terabytes of data for free and you didn't think there was a catch? I know there is a case of giving up civil liberties and all but for what we get, a few targeted adverts really isn't a big deal in my mind.

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    elsiegee40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robjduk View Post
    Im sorry but I don't understand the fuss. Google offers to store potentially hundreds of Terabytes of data for free and you didn't think there was a catch? I know there is a case of giving up civil liberties and all but for what we get, a few targeted adverts really isn't a big deal in my mind.
    The problem is doing it in accounts for schools. Young people shouldn't be targeted in this way through their school accounts. Google has plenty of opportunity to make its billions through its non education accounts

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