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BSF Thread, BSF - The Quetions in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Originally Posted by beeswax I did ask our "man in the council" what provision there would be for training and ...
  1. #16
    Grommit's Avatar
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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    Quote Originally Posted by beeswax
    I did ask our "man in the council" what provision there would be for training and update of skills once we'd been moved across to private hands. He usually gets back to me pretty quickly, but not this time.
    Has anyone got contacts with Teachers, HOD's, AH's, DH's or Heads at schools in the fallen counties ?

    Then we can get a SLT point of view from these schools and that counts for a lot with other Heads...

    All we need is 4 or 5 schools saying that the service is bad, overpriced, restrictive and NOT Value for money then the whole enforced managed services might go down the pan...

    http://www.edugeek.net/index.php?nam...ewtopic&t=5499

  2. #17

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    Terms and conditions cannot be varied by the transferee when the principle reason is:
    - the transfer itself
    - a reason connected with the transfer which is not an economic, technical or organisational reason entailing changes in the workforce.
    n.b. an employer cannot impose new terms and conditions without the agreement of the employees, any changes would have to be agreed by the employee or by his union representative
    Don't rely upon TUPE to save you. The TUPE regulations are geared towards allowing your union and your ex-employer to sleep at nights.....thinking they have done the best they can for you.

    To pick up on two points:

    Economic,Technical,Organisational(ETO) reasons mean there is a huge backdoor in TUPE rules allowing the employer to get rid of staff

    eg
    1) Technical - You are skilled in Microsoft products, the service provider has proposed UNIX/thin client and they don't need your Microsoft skills, ........ it's bye-bye

    2) Economic - The service provider says he is going bust unless he sheds labour..... bye bye again

    3) Organisational - The service provider says he can manage all servers centrally, from some remote outpost in his empire, so he does not need NMs in every school....bye bye once again.

    Cannot impose new terms and conditions; sounds good, but dead easy to circumvent.....

    ""So, you want a promotion, pay rise, no problem.... just sign here, and by the way, your pay rise/promotion is conditional on you accepting new T&C" So you accept the T&C that every other poor soul in the service providers organisation has to accept because they joined without TUPE protection.

    Go no further than those Local Authorities who are attempting to impose T&C changes on their own employees as part of single status right across the country, in many cases forcing employees to take pay cuts so that they can settle the huge number of pay claims due to discrimination of low paid female local government workers.

    Don't be fooled by TUPE, or rely upon the LA to 'do the right thing' for you.

  3. #18

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    All this BSF talk is very demotivating. I propose a ban on all BSF topics, don rose tinted glasses and get on with our jobs

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    ^ Here here. If we all close our eyes it will all go away :twisted:

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    Quote Originally Posted by webman
    All this BSF talk is very demotivating. I propose a ban on all BSF topics, don rose tinted glasses and get on with our jobs
    Pleeeeaaase... I know of people that have been sidelined because of the BSF and it's gonna get far far worse as the BSF steamroller really starts moving...

    We were told that only now will the BSF ball start rolling... the pathfinders have just finished and the main program is about to roll..

    So.. carry on with you job as tho everything is ok and when they TUPE you or show you the door I hope your skillset has improved and your CV sorted or change careers...

    because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

    Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective

  6. #21

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    Quote Originally Posted by j17sparky
    ^ Here here. If we all close our eyes it will all go away :twisted:
    May as well burry your head in the sand Or go work for the private education sector where BSF has no place

  7. #22

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    Here is a scenario,

    A school is about to undergo transformation through BSF.
    The existing school has 1 year to go before closure and transfer to the new site.
    The existing IT staff not wanting to hang around and be wasted by the new BSF management company jump ship early, leaving the school IT systems totally unmanned and unsupported.

    What happens?

    My guess is it used to cost the school £45k pa for the old team so I would think to get an agency team in for a 12 month contract would be worth about £80k

    I bet nobody thought that scenario out at the LEA when they went for it!

    Lets face it with BSF outsourcing most of the schools non teaching jobs and the Americans taking over the Management and Senior Teaching Posts - (See how Edison are moving into the UK with over 50 schools now in thier control) all the remaining teaching staff will be forced to conform to the corporate school model and we will end up with a school system as efficient as the NHS.

    I belive BSF is just another black hole for taxpayers cash to dissappear into and the only people to benefit long term will be the shareholders.

    All of the schools will eventually be owned outright by the property developers that rebuilt them and the LEA's will be forced to pay exorbatant amounts of cash to keep them open in 10 years time.

    Mortgaging Schools for the Future is a more apt name!

    Waterloo Road begins to look like reality TV everytime I see it!

  8. #23

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    [quote="Grommit"]
    Quote Originally Posted by webman
    because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

    Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective

    So all these managed service companies are going to run, mend & manage the pc's with mind power then??

    and grommit we have seen/understand your agenda have you even thought about the fact rm may have got the contracts because they are doing something right.

    You only have to look at mess in Leicester with bsf to realises what happens when companies who bid bsf contracts don't think about the tender and then win.

    Being that you are in Scotland and not under bsf you do seem to take this very personally.

    Remember contracts are decided by LA not bid winners so terms of contract are down to what LA want.

    Russell

  9. #24

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    We know school networks aren't run by mind power. But these companies already have their own employees who will manage the networks or will consoldate roles.

    Currently 3 schools: 3 local network managers, and 6 local techies.

    BSF 1 school: 1 Managed ICT service with existing network technicians. 3 network managers and 6 techies. It just does not compute.

    I think, Russ, that what we are getting at is that network managers and senior technicians will not have the responsibility, job satisfaction and impact to the school that we and the schools currently enjoy. We will be TUPE'd and then made redundant when the managed service has too many staff; one lucky person may get network manager and the rest will do monkey work - and be on the receiving end of flac from school staff because of the many failures of the 'new' IT system, and why the serivce you used to be able to provide suddenly vanished.

  10. #25
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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    [quote="russdev"]
    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    Quote Originally Posted by webman
    because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

    Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective
    You only have to look at mess in Leicester with bsf to realises what happens when companies who bid bsf contracts don't think about the tender and then win.

    Being that you are in Scotland and not under bsf you do seem to take this very personally.

    Russell

    Sorry Russel.. I am not in Scotland but in England working in a Pathfinder School in the West of England...

    My jaw dropped a few years ago when the BSF consultants came in and said that the ICT department would be Service Managed, all staff would be TUPED or retrenched and that the school had no say in it..

    Thats why I am so vocal.. because I have been there and understand what in means to see all that you have worked for get flushed away and know that you have no future because some low paid drone in RM will be the one working on your server and the rest of the school servers in the county...

    and if you want to work in te school you have grown to love with the staff that you have bonded with over the past 8 years you have to become a low paid techie drone..


    Yea I have an agenda.... and thats to get the ICT managers of England mobilised to save their jobs..

    Russel.. what is you role now ? and please can you tell us how you propose to keep your job when the BSF rolls in..

    because as I know the Prefered Bidder in Leicestershire pulled out and they had to get a new supplier... but that will still not stop the BSF from taking over the ICT

  11. #26

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    @Grommit
    Do us a favour and change your location in your profile then ... it gets confusing if you say 'Scotland' and you are actually working in England.

  12. #27

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    [quote="Grommit"]
    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    Quote Originally Posted by webman
    because unless you want to be a toner / password changer there is no future in the Education IT sector...

    Resistance is futile... we are the RM and prepare to be Assimilated into the Managed Services Collective
    You only have to look at mess in Leicester with bsf to realises what happens when companies who bid bsf contracts don't think about the tender and then win.

    Being that you are in Scotland and not under bsf you do seem to take this very personally.

    Russell

    Sorry Russel.. I am not in Scotland but in England working in a Pathfinder School in the West of England...

    My jaw dropped a few years ago when the BSF consultants came in and said that the ICT department would be Service Managed, all staff would be TUPED or retrenched and that the school had no say in it..

    Thats why I am so vocal.. because I have been there and understand what in means to see all that you have worked for get flushed away and know that you have no future because some low paid drone in RM will be the one working on your server and the rest of the school servers in the county...

    and if you want to work in te school you have grown to love with the staff that you have bonded with over the past 8 years you have to become a low paid techie drone..


    Yea I have an agenda.... and thats to get the ICT managers of England mobilised to save their jobs..

    Russel.. what is you role now ? and please can you tell us how you propose to keep your job when the BSF rolls in..

    because as I know the Prefered Bidder in Leicestershire pulled out and they had to get a new supplier... but that will still not stop the BSF from taking over the ICT
    I think you have a healthy view of what BSF means Grommit. It's a complete shambles to be honest. It has been in the news (making the BBC web pages) and the ICT support component isn't up to scratch at all. Being a Senior Systems Manager in a school that is having a new build shortly, and having to project manage the ICT infrastructure and support framework for that new build, I can tell you that the Head's initial idea was to go managed services. It's compelling for Head Teachers. He asked me whether I would be with him on it and I told him I wouldn't become a toner replacement engineer for [insert company here]. I would leave before then if that were to happen.

    Now we are going it alone but with the support of a large company providing specialist network design and implementation services who will provide us with post-support using SLAs and other mechanisms, whilst providing us the freedom to source hardware and software for our particular needs and install and run the thing ourselves. Rather than BSF and total managed services I believe the best way to go is a hybrid- let someone like RM provide specialist services (pretty much as they kind of do now) with attached SLAs, and have the ability to still be flexible with localised ICT support and implementation. There is nothing more flexible than a couple of local technicians who manage and know the network and can respond to problems as and when they happen (like thos online tests that you get told about just 40 minutes before they are supposed to happen and you get working in time for them to start)!

    Yeah. Like it is for lots of us now really. So no real change in other words. But outsourcing ICT totally only sounds like a good idea to those in a position of safety. Or with vested interests and connections to the companies involved in the thing.

    Good luck in fighting your corner.

  13. #28

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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    "There is nothing more flexible than a couple of local technicians who manage and know the network and can respond to problems as and when they happen (like thos online tests that you get told about just 40 minutes before they are supposed to happen and you get working in time for them to start)!"

    40 minutes! I wish our head of ICT was so obliging. some good points there though

  14. #29

    russdev's Avatar
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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    Right maybe I should clarify things as was in bad mood lat night.

    I don't support bsf I think it is wrong way to go.

    With that said I don't think blaming companies going for bsf tenders the baddies as if likes of rm and others didn't go for it someone else would.

    Grommit you can make rm the person to blame for bsf all you like but in my view the people to blame are pfi/goverment for making the ict side to restrictive.

    I also think the only low-wage tech discussion is good but as been said before ways around this.

    Remember that details in some ways is down to lea who decide contract.

    My biggest issue with you grommit is one you want to make companies look bad for going with bsf tenders this helps no one maybe think about working with them to make sure the low paid senero doesn't happen.

    Edugeek doesn't work with likes of rm or other bsf tenders for sake of it.

    Also the fact you post about how bsf going to get rid of your jobs but don't give advice on how to safe guard it and there are many ways of doing that.

    You seem to think if we all upraised tomorrow bsf would be stopped I can tell you now every techie could go on strike on Monday over bsf and it would make no difference at all as you are dealing with politics.


    Quote Originally Posted by kingswood
    Now we are going it alone but with the support of a large company providing specialist network design and implementation services who will provide us with post-support using SLAs and other mechanisms, whilst providing us the freedom to source hardware and software for our particular needs and install and run the thing ourselves. Rather than BSF and total managed services I believe the best way to go is a hybrid- let someone like RM provide specialist services (pretty much as they kind of do now) with attached SLAs, and have the ability to still be flexible with localised ICT support and implementation. There is nothing more flexible than a couple of local technicians who manage and know the network and can respond to problems as and when they happen (like thos online tests that you get told about just 40 minutes before they are supposed to happen and you get working in time for them to start)!
    Ironey of that is non-bsf solution that rm use for managed service is like that It is only the fact that RM have to conform bsf structure in bsf tenders I suspect.


    Russ

  15. #30


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    Re: BSF - The Quetions

    You seem to think if we all upraised tomorrow bsf would be stopped I can tell you now every techie could go on strike on Monday over bsf and it would make no difference at all as you are dealing with politics.
    you said that about compulsory KS3 ICT testing and becasue RM made such a mess of that it was made optional.

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