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BSF Thread, BSF - Email from Steve Moss in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Originally Posted by GrumbleDook @Grommit Get me facts and figures that can be used as examples ... also evidence that ...
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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    @Grommit

    Get me facts and figures that can be used as examples ... also evidence that you were to the standards that they have said were required with respect to hardware, infrastructure and functionality ... then we can have a better case to argue ...

    The same way that we keep saying to them "give us evidence that things will not go downhill or waste money" people will turn round to us and say "prove to us that you are doing the job as well as required."

    Harsh ... but if we want to get involved with this arguement we have to play by certain rules until those rules get changed ... (as some MPs are doing at the moment with things like the EDM)
    Well simple maths is

    School of 1200 Students

    BSF/PFS

    BSF/PFS basic rate for Managed Services Costs is approx £95per student

    So thats £114 000.00 per year for 5 years = £570 000.00

    No Evening Support, No Weekend Support, No instant deployment of Software, No Moving PC's from one room to another.

    No ICT/Phone/Photocopier/Cashless Catering/Library Software/Whiteboard/Curricilum/ Manager (all rounder)


    In-house ICT


    ICT Manager and 2 Techs approx £60 to £70k per Year = £350 00.00 or £220 000.00 less than BSF Costs (how many ICT suites can that buy)

    Evening Support, Weekend Support, Instant Deploymet of Software, Moving PC's where-ever you want.

    ICT manager/ All Rounder included in bundle

    Remember also the first year of the Managed Services is from the BSF build monies all further years have to be funded by the School

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    But you get hardware/software with the £95 pa cost ?
    What does the Basic rate give schools ?

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    But you get hardware/software with the £95 pa cost ?
    What does the Basic rate give schools ?
    I was told and I might be wrong that it is just the Managed Services Support that is £95 per student.. Nothing else.. Thats change the toner, replace the Mice or Ghost a PC...

    But as Moss will say..... the Managed Services can be tailored to you needs....

    Yes that is correct... BUT anything above the basic watch the servers and do menial work around site will cost a lot extra..

    We can have a SLA that will cover Weekend work or after hours work..... but it'll cost much more

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Sadly I don't think headteachers will see it this way - My understanding was that schools will get significant extra funding from government as an incentive for IT outsourcing????. So adding an extra technician to meet the 'extras' might only end up costing 1xtech from the schools existing budget.

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    That's a very well written reply GrumbleDook.

    I am at a loss for words as to how the government can seriously believe that moving the provision and magement of something as integral as ICT in schools from internal management to private companies, whos single interest is going to be their bottom line - not in providing any level of service - is an idea even worth considering.

    It's brilliant that the fuding education has been seriously lacking is finally being made available - and many establishments who have been providing sometimes incredibly flexible, powerful and made to fit solutions on a shoestring budget could make huge use of it, so where does the logic of forcing them to pour it straight into private companies who are going to force the massive diversity of requirements from all different institutions into a 'one size fits all' package come from? The point about forcing many to take a step back is spot on. Those that have poor ICT provision at present; usually the ones who don't put much of a focus on ICT within the school and still treat it as just another subject; will continue to have poor ICT provision under a managed service and those who have fought hard to increase and improve ICT provision and in many cases; created some pretty incredible stuff; will be forced backwards.

    Yes - absolutely - provide the support services. Not everyone has excellent in-house ICT at present and a lot of schools experience with ICT in general has been bad; but on the salaries they are able to offer for the people supporting their systems you really take pot luck on the quality of support staff you get. With REAL funding, schools could improve the quality of their own internal support massively; and LEAs support could be increased to provide training and support to their schools. The idea of throwing that money at companies like RM, Centerprise, Capita is utter madness.

    BSF is something we will be seeking to ask serious questions about and now is the time we should all be doing so - these boards are an excellent resource for those of us working in schools who can see the stupidity of these proposals. Thanks are due to the people putting their time in to get questions answered and issues raised. You're doing good work.

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    Sadly I don't think headteachers will see it this way - My understanding was that schools will get significant extra funding from government as an incentive for IT outsourcing????. So adding an extra technician to meet the 'extras' might only end up costing 1xtech from the schools existing budget.
    My understanding is that there is no ongoing ICT funding for BSF after the initial capital investment (£1450 per student) is made, and the BSF capital cannot be used to fund staff costs. The managed services charges have to come from main school budget, as does any additional funding the school chooses to 'invest' with the managed services company to pay for equipment renewal during the life of the service contract.
    I also believe schools will have to find the money to pay for any repairs not covered by warranty. The small print in the service contract covering repairs should make interesting reading, assuming anyone bothers writing it in; take for example when a student laptop suffers keyboard abuse. Today, the technicians who work at my school have decent workshop facilities and are very good at re-attaching keys on laptops; I can imagine that with a managed service the school will simply get a bill for supplying & fitting a new keyboard as there will be more profit for them doing this.....

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Quote Originally Posted by broc
    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    Sadly I don't think headteachers will see it this way - My understanding was that schools will get significant extra funding from government as an incentive for IT outsourcing????. So adding an extra technician to meet the 'extras' might only end up costing 1xtech from the schools existing budget.
    My understanding is that there is no ongoing ICT funding for BSF after the initial capital investment (£1450 per student) is made, and the BSF capital cannot be used to fund staff costs. The managed services charges have to come from main school budget, as does any additional funding the school chooses to 'invest' with the managed services company to pay for equipment renewal during the life of the service contract.
    I also believe schools will have to find the money to pay for any repairs not covered by warranty. The small print in the service contract covering repairs should make interesting reading, assuming anyone bothers writing it in; take for example when a student laptop suffers keyboard abuse. Today, the technicians who work at my school have decent workshop facilities and are very good at re-attaching keys on laptops; I can imagine that with a managed service the school will simply get a bill for supplying & fitting a new keyboard as there will be more profit for them doing this.....
    Part of my understanding is that clever LEPs will insist on adequate spares built into the initial spend. This originally came up when questions were raised about hardware replacement for infrastructure equipment that failed outside of warranty or insurance circumstances ... and was logically extended to include all hardware.

    The initial spend also fails to cover software upgrades unless you buy into annual schemes such as the MS Schools Agreement (hence why Becta has suddenly realised it might not be cost effective) or you make the initial purchase with some for of software assurance (available for a number of software produces including MS, Apple and Adobe ... but not for a number of educational packages).

    From reading up and from conversations, the NCSL course about equipping your school, staff and LA for BSF will be an opportunity to ensure Heads (or relavent staff) are aware of these sort of issues.

    One person I have spoken with recently has pointed out that the Certificate of School Business Management actually covers a lot of good practice about sustainability and ensuring good practice in IT systems ... hopefully there will be sufficient input from Business Managers / Bursars in schools in the LEP to ensure this is in place. This is another avenue of attack you can take in your school ... appeal to the person who has to look after the money for the next 10 years.

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Whilst we all know of horror stories of Network Managers having all the power in a school and refusing to compromise this is rarely the case,
    Now this is the standard urban legend to strike fear into HeadTeachers to take Managed Services...

    But let's look on the flip side.. at least if it is in house someone onsite can take control of the network.. be it the Director of ICT or a Technician

    But lets say RM is you managed service Providor and you get into dispute with them. like unable to pay or contractual dispute and they put your account on "stop" or "hold" like most support companies do if there is a dispute..

    They will just lock you out and could shut you down.. no passwords can be changed, no students can be added, if a server crashes it will be held hostage.. all the technicians are in the pay of RM so they will be taken off site...

    How difficult will it be to gain control of the Network back from RM and provide support to the students and staff..

    all eggs in one basket comes to mind

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    @Grumbledook

    Clever LEP.... interesting

    I understand the LEP to be a partnership between the LA, Partnership for Schools, and the private companies who will build & service the BSF contract. The 'model' LEP proposed by P4S has the LA as a minor (10%) stakeholder in the LEP, with P4S also 10% and the private companies holding 80%.

    As far as I can see, if the LEP builds in a significant element of spares into the service contract, all that will happen will be the cost to the clients (schools) will be inflated to cover the cost of 'managing' the spares. Many schools will lose local onsite repair facilities & skills as part of BSF. If there is no onsite warranty repair service provided then equipment wil have to go offsite for repair.

    The fabled 'penalty' payments frequently offered by P4S to entice HTs has a sting too. Every outsourcing contract I have been involved in in the past included penalties, and all the service provider does is works out how often they expect the service to fail, work out what it will cost them in penalties, and build this into the 'fees' the clients pay; It is just like an insurance premium, only the client may not realise he is paying it! If the service fails, the client gets some of their own money back, if it doesn't fail, more profit is made for shareholders.

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit
    Whilst we all know of horror stories of Network Managers having all the power in a school and refusing to compromise this is rarely the case,
    Now this is the standard urban legend to strike fear into HeadTeachers to take Managed Services...
    Nope .. not an urban legend ... and if you notice I did mention that this is rarely the case.

    Let's face it ... I would say a good number of us here have ideas and methods about how we could bring our networks to a standstill. How we have control about what happens to it ...

    I have an Etherkiller ... it is framed and has the legend 'in case of luser, break glass' ... I have a few back doors ... I am a SysAdmin and that means I like control and want control ...

    I am not a BoFH ... but I know people here who are and I bow down before them (or is it cower in fear!) ... and yes, this is an arguement that is used by Managed Service providers but if you have a good realationship with people in your school and provide a good service then this gets laughed at by your SLT/SMT.

    Even at my last place, after a falling out with the Head, he knew that a managed service would still not bring in the quality of support or resources he got with the Network Manager, me and the other techie ... but that didn't stop him from at least listening and making an informed decision.

    The job now is to make sure that the decision is as informed as possible.

    Thanks for your figures from earlier ... I need to check that the per head value is correct for the present wave in England as £95 per head per year is a little low ... is that over 5 or 10 years? I have the same figure as Broc ... £1450 per student, which still comes out as £145 each year.

    Do you know if any money was creamed off before you got those figures?

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Something that I find particularly worrying is the way that the 'one size fits all' solution is to be adopted. From what I can see, if the majority of schools [that are being consulted] within an LEA want the managed service, everybody will have to have it.

    I am particularly worried about the stifling of innovation and the detrimental effect that the limitation of purchasing decisions will have. I also feel that throwing a 'good' ICT infrastructure into a school that has always been lacking can also have a detrimental effect. The new resources will be under-used and will not enhance teaching and learning unless the teaching staff are brought up to speed... something that doesn't seem to be mentioned when talking about these managed services and influxes of new computers.

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook
    Thanks for your figures from earlier ... I need to check that the per head value is correct for the present wave in England as £95 per head per year is a little low ... is that over 5 or 10 years? I have the same figure as Broc ... £1450 per student, which still comes out as £145 each year.

    Do you know if any money was creamed off before you got those figures?
    I think the two figures are not closely coupled; the £1450 is one-off BSF investment capital per student; the £95 per student per year is the cost being quoted to Grommit for the managed service at his school and to me sounds like a minimal level of service on a 5 year contract. I have seen figures quoted by P4S of between £80-£120 & more, with schools being given the 'option' to invest at an even higher level to buy more service/support/replacement kit, have more software installs, refreshes etc. This 'benchmark' figure quoted by P4S is to for schools to achieve the minimum level of service, the extra costs will be dependent upon local contracts between service providers & schools and don't seem to be in the public domain at the moment.

    My worry about this figure is that we have already been told by my LA that a school with above average levels of support or equipment WILL have to pay more than this to maintain services at the levels they are used to.

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    Which is exactly the evidence I need to put forward to Steve Moss, Becta and SSAT (who are desperate to ensure that innovation is not stifled!)

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    I think finding the evidence will take time. Not many LAs in Wave 1 and Wave 2 have got to the point yet where they have 'real' numbers to look at & those that have will probably have the information locked away until contracts are awarded & the information becomes public domain.

    P4S has made BSF funding conditional on schools 'signing up' to managed ICT services. In fact many schools are being asked to sign up to managed ICT services 'in principle' based upon nothing more than the vague figures being waved about by P4S which as far as I am aware have not been substantiated by any evidence from real school costs.

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    Re: BSF - Email from Steve Moss

    The way it's going, BSF will be implemented country-wide before there's real data from the first schools, and by that time it'll obviously too late to make any changes - all tech support will have jumped ship and a lot of the country's schools will be worse-off in IT.

    Yes, cynic is my middle name

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