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BSF Thread, The Fallen... in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Surely we are trying to teach the children (well we are not teaching but you know what I mean) about ...
  1. #31

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    Re: The Fallen...

    Surely we are trying to teach the children (well we are not teaching but you know what I mean) about the real world out there, and prepare them for life in Uni, offices, building sites, banks, shops etc How many of those places will run a system like CC3, Viglen Classlink etc etc.... I can see the benefits from a schools point of view, but when it screws around with the looks and way the systems work its pointless, hence why I prefer a vanilla setup, its the way it is in the real world out there

  2. #32

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    Re: The Fallen...

    right...

    Am I going to defend them that says it really you do have a us and them attitude towards RM.

    right we all no my connection to RM but just for sake of fairness and new people in audience today I work for an RM Partner School.

    Anyway back to subject in hand how can you really say RM getting a contract is bad thing when you have no real involvement with company for nearly 8 years. To be fair that is me making judgement on Linuxgirlies karoshi based on 5 min conversation with her and her partner and viewing it for 5 mins at trade show (by way it is good) but would put in school till I had looked at it in detail.

    But more to point if you look into it bit more what you would find in a industry were people stay in jobs for about 3 years you find staff staying there for 10+ years.

    To be fair RM have ran northern ireland school network system for about 5+ years and dont see northan ireland crashing to unskilled workers who cant use computers.

    The thing about what they use industry is non argument mainly as have you looked at kid with mobile recently they dont need manuals they new mobile they learn in about 10 minutes and mobile interfaces have most non standard interface and biggist differences between different mobile interfaces.

    The look and layout of stuff is be hang up us adults have nothing else.

    Also in bsf think it is less than 10% of contracts have been appointed look at Leicester contract uses thin client technology even through rm do have think client technology system as well \we are start of very big process rm are taking over world attitude is well laughable .

    Also if talk to RM as I do RM are fist ones to admit they made mistakes in post in terms of support and such if you look at company now different company than 8 years ago as is every company.

    Also RM solution is about time saving yes pay extra but to be honest got better things to do with my time then design a vanilla network system. Can spend my designign extra stuff that makes my bosses happy like extra stuff to improve T & L.

    The facts is I can do anything on my system that can do on non rm network heck if wanted to could remove rm login screen have standard rm screen.

    In terms sorry to be blunt it looks like you basing your hang up on rm based on information 8 years out of date and seeing CC3 being used few times. I have always been a solutions person solution that works for you yes I agree BSF starts take that away but we are in political society and the facts remains BSF is not going away so we need to make system work for us and the schools we work for.

  3. #33

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    Re: The Fallen...

    An RM CC3 network is still Windows, CC3 is just a collection of handy utilities. As Russ said, we can still delve into Windows and do things exactly like a vanilla, except most tasks we can do more efficiently and quicker which is a benefit of paying for the tools in one package. The interface isn't really that different as far as the kids are concerned anyway. Start menu, Windows desktop, Windows explorer, network drives - the things found on any network. Login box is different, yes, but I hardly think that matters. We know kids can adapt very well to change so the issue is neither here nor there.

  4. #34


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    Re: The Fallen...

    Russ,
    Some of us *do* work with RM and make our judgment on that basis. The mess they made of KS3 testing, their appauling filtering service, their internet connection dying regularly, their DNS servers falling over, the amount they overcharge for workstations. Most of the people on this forum have seen their fair share of RM stuff. The fact that your school has good links with RM is the exception, not the norm.

  5. #35

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    Re: The Fallen...

    I agree CyberNerd with most points, but you can avoid most of them by simply not choosing to pay RM for that service. All we get now is the Connect licences.

  6. #36


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    Re: The Fallen...

    but soon that choice won't be available.
    RM are failing schools now - yet still winning multimillion pound contracts, just as with NHS,CSA etc another failed government IT strategy in the making.

  7. #37

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    Re: The Fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    Russ,
    Some of us *do* work with RM and make our judgment on that basis. The mess they made of KS3 testing, their appauling filtering service, their internet connection dying regularly, their DNS servers falling over, the amount they overcharge for workstations. Most of the people on this forum have seen their fair share of RM stuff. The fact that your school has good links with RM is the exception, not the norm.
    Wasn't saying that to everyone...

    Let me start with ks3 software I think best thing is to point you to our podcast we did with ceo of RM this gives good overview of ks3 sats stuff. Do you not like some stuff well to be honest go to people who decided all this the naa rm have to follow what is put down by naa. i agree the terminal service project could of been handle bit better remember lot of sats problems are made by naa at bigger level.

    To be honest reason RM got project as down the fact that RM are only ones who could cover cost for 8 years.

    The filtering and internet service cant comment on that as dont use them use smartcahce and filtering is ok on that but as for isp service I cant comment but will find most rbcs are same that is political more than it is anything else.

    Workstations well to be honest we look all costs and yes we pay bit more but that saves me time and that's they key there i have better things to do with my time and install workstations yes key part of my job but this dosn't improve teaching and learning in school what does is having access to software and solutions that can be used new and initiative ways be staff.

    But as been said you can pick and choose services we want if we wanted to we could go to likes of dell for hardware, someone else for licenses.

    Also for me not being norm in fact I am norm apart from difference i hold people accountable including RM I cause trouble I make companies and solutions work for us not other way around.

    But then we got/still get this with Microsoft when any company has large % share of market they become villain of industry.

    We have to be careful not to blame RM for BSF as when it comes to it if RM didn't get it someone else does.

    I do think people get hung up some things but anyway we could end up like usenet if not careful and start having os wars can just see Edugeek RM wars era..

    Russ

  8. #38


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    Re: The Fallen...

    Thanks Russ, you've convinced me. RM are fantastic and I for one welcome our new BSF overlords.

    P.S. If there's anyone from RM here, please can I keep job when you take over my school - I know how great you are, honest.

  9. #39
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    Re: The Fallen...

    ”Also RM solution is about time saving yes pay extra but to be honest got better things to do with my time then design a vanilla network system.”
    I have mixed views on RM and use RM a lot and from the children and staff point of view it’s great which is why I use it. But from an IT tech point of view it’s a pain to use and slow on the other hand the software package is good. Lots of software that should work doesn’t due to the changes made by RM and when problems turn up they can be a pain to fix. Saying that RM support is very good they have always responded fast and fixed the problem.

    The ks3 software was a right mess there was no thought was so ever for special needs schools. Some of the things they said to us where impossible to implant and some of the ideas like take the children down to a local school for a test clearly shows they had no one who’s experience in special schools working on the project.

  10. #40
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    Re: The Fallen...

    People are missing the point....It does not make any difference that RM get a PFI contract for a school / LEA ICT solution.

    The problem IS BSF, and PFI contracts being given out to anyone, especially as they are private companies out to make a profit. The only way they can make a profit is to spend less than they recieve from govt and that could mean cuts to staff pay or sharing staff over multiple schools dropping the quality of service.

    The fact that RM have been in education for a while and have already managed whole schools and provided a solution in Northern Ireland puts them at the forefront so yes they are likely to get contracts and to be honest it is probably better than a lot of companies whose intention when getting these PFI contracts is to squeeze the assets as hard as possible and then sell the contract on.

  11. #41

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    Re: The Fallen...

    I agree with the special needs statement and I think some of this is the NAA's fault, "there must be business opportunity here, setup the server back at base, have some disconnected laptops taken to schools, results uploaded back to cps at company's office".

    hmmm....

    @CyberNerd

    lol I am not trying to convince anyone but I do think that just because a company gets a contract on BSF, it doesn't make this company evil incarnate, as some people have a tendency to think.

    I do understand people's fears of BSF, and I have these as well, but the way I go forward is to make myself and my role needed. I can go to the SLT and talk about T&L, I can come up with new ideas and projects.

    So when the school comes to lose me, I can say 'this is what I have done, the school has gained here and here for me being employed at the school.'

    Don't forget that Cobol programmers in 80's were the hottest property, then as new languages came in they were not needed anymore, and those that survived were programmers who said "I am not a Cobol programmer but a programmer who has learnt new languages."

    The reality is that BSF is here and is not going. People who do stick their heads in the sand will their lose jobs or get their pay slashed, and yes, I know me and Tony go and on about this.

    People accuse EduGeek of not doing enough about BSF. Firstly, we are not in the best position to do stuff. Itis you, at school level, who can get heads to listen, who can get LAs to listen and so on.

    Tony does lot which is not seen on BSF and IT Support nationally, and in general we, as an organisation, do what we can, but the reality is that we haven't got a magic wand that will make BSF go away.

    editted to make it simpler for those not used to reading stream of consciousness text - Tony

  12. #42

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    Re: The Fallen...

    Well.. I claim a background that makes me capable of credibly criticising CC3 at almost any level and:

    --

    The concept is obviously OK: Standard off-the-shelf config & tools mean you can walk up to one and know where most things are. This is not true for D-I-Y Windows systems, most of which you'd likely want to scrap and start again.

    The implementation is not brilliant: To me it feels like it was strung together by a rolling cast of wannabees learning about to code for NT on the job using whatever techniques they found first on Google (which of course tend to be dated and were dated before CC3 was released). They even let someone run off and write an "engine" which speaks volumes.

    Delivery of fixes is poor - it's five years old(?) and there are too many tedious gotcha's and workarounds you need to know for routine tasks. Yes, you get security fixes but they're only just getting around to 18 month-old W2K3 SP1 - people are getting burnt now by exotic bugs that MS have long-since fixed.

    --

    RM are working on CC4 now.. will be interesting to see whether a) they've acquired a more serious, professional and coherent approach to their s/w architecture & development, b) they get any better at producing timely bug-fixes.

    The number of pies RM seem to have their fingers in makes me doubtful that fixes will ever get enough resources, especially a year or two down the line (coders always want to write new stuff, not work on legacy apps).

    except most tasks we can do more efficiently and quicker
    I honestly think the inefficiencies outweigh that. There's just too much obvious admin stuff you can't do quickly unless you write your own scripts|apps to work with their customisations in AD etc.

  13. #43

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    Re: The Fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by russdev
    Reality is that bsf here is not going people who do stick there heads in the sand will lose jobs I know me and tony go and on about this.

    People accuse EduGeek of not doing enough about bsf first we are not in best position to do stuff its you at school level who get heads to listen, who can get leas to listen and so on.
    I think you are exactly right! BSF is here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future whether we like it or not. Edugeek is a forum which allows us to share views & opinions, not an organisation that can lobby on our behalf. Slagging off RM or any of the other organisations bidding for the business will do no good.

    I think for the early waves of BSF (1-3+), it is too late to do anything now. The BSF 'Managed Service' juggernaut is rolling, and neither schools or LAs can stop it, so what chance have we? We have to accept it, or leave. We need to make sure that we survive & prosper in the post-BSF world, either by being part of the managed service or by moving on elsewhere.

    As NM, I am attending a meeting on behalf of my school tomorrow to review the LAs Draft BSF ICT technical requirements for schools. This will eventually become part of the ICT tendering documentation; we have to make sure it contains everything the school is likely to need for the next 5 years. There is no mention of support, service levels, roles, or jobs..... I feel a bit like a turkey voting for Christmas BUT I will make sure at the end of the day that we get the best we can for our schools. I will fight my corner (& for my technicians) when the time comes, by doing as professional a job as I can. I am worried about my/our long term future, but I am determined to stay the course.

  14. #44

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    Re: The Fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by broc
    I feel a bit like a turkey voting for Christmas
    More accurately a turkey who just caught Bernard Matthews grinning at him

  15. #45
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    Re: The Fallen...

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberNerd
    but soon that choice won't be available.
    RM are failing schools now - yet still winning multimillion pound contracts, just as with NHS,CSA etc another failed government IT strategy in the making.
    You sure RM have not loaned Tony Blair some cash along the way like the Capita boss.

    And Russ sorry to be anal but can you PLEASE use some THE's in your posts, I gave up reading it after one paragraph.

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