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BSF Thread, BSF feedback please. in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; @ngreenwood: Would it be too much to ask if you would run us through the BSF in your area and ...
  1. #16

    bossman's Avatar
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    @ngreenwood:

    Would it be too much to ask if you would run us through the BSF in your area and how you dealt with it and what were the final outcomes, be they positive or negative?

  2. Thanks to bossman from:

    webman (12th November 2009)

  3. #17
    ngreenwood's Avatar
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    Will do next time I have 10 minutes spare this aft.

  4. #18
    mrmontymick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngreenwood View Post
    I always find it funny that the people who are so 'knowledgeable' about BSF, TUPE and RM are never the ones who have been through it. The negative posts are always rumours or cases of “my mate’s older brother’s mate’s cousin works in X project, and he says all the staff are being laid off”
    The reason you don’t hear from a lot of people post-BSF is because the majority of people see it as the great opportunity that it is and can’t be arsed with the hundreds of moaning posts on the BSF Forum.
    Don't have any direct BSF knowledge although the authority here is putting together a BSF bid so may well shortly!

    Have had numerous dealings with RM and to be honest do think that they are below average when it comes to most things. Not the worst but definately a could do better - only my point of view of course.

    On the subject of TUPE, as from my previous post, I have been TUPE'd myself twice and managed a TUPE situation three times for other people so do have a reasonable amount of experience in this area. From this I do have a reasonable amount of understanding of the outsourcing process, which from my understanding is a fairly common part of the BSF bid.

    Outsourcing like most things has it's ups and it's down, the other poster is right to say that generally lower level staff tend to do better out of the process, more senior and managerial staff tend to encounter more issues during the process - I doubt the outsourcing involved in BSF is much different - outsourcing can be a good thing but it has to be handled both extremely carefully and very well by all parties concerned.

  5. #19
    AndyNDuffy's Avatar
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    BSF

    Hi Guys
    Thanks for all your comments and feedback. We are about to go into a BSF project so am very interested in how it is likely to go.

  6. #20
    mrmontymick's Avatar
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    I'm going to do this in general outsourcing terms as I've been through that process several times, I understand that it wond't be entirely accurate to the peculiarities and quirks of BSF but I'm hoping it will be similar.

    What’s your job title before and after BSF?

    In general lower level staff retain a very similar job title; Technicians stay as technicians etc. The only general exception to this is when the outsource company splits technicians into different support groups - for example a remote support group and a field service group. This often happens to reduce costs and to try to provide a more immediate remote service rather than having to have a physical body on the ground.

    Who employs you before and after BSF?

    Post-transfer you would be employed by the managed service provider.

    What role did you play, if any?

    In outsourcing terms I have been involved in the process on a more junior level (ie getting transferred) and then later managing being outsourced and also bringing in an outsourced team into my own team (i.e. I was the managed service provider)

    Did the managed service work as expected? Who is your service provider?

    What I would say on this is the managed service works as CONTRACTED not necessarily as EXPECTED. This is an area where a lot of people fall over - because they have not been careful enough when drawing up the contracts for the managed service.

    This needs to be studied in depth and gone over again and again to make sure you have got it right before you sign on the dotted line.

    What issues did you as an ICT support team face before and after BSF?

    The area where most friction comes for lower level staff is the challenge of new working procedures and having to toe the line of the new MSP.

    For higher level staff it's fitting in with the Corporate culture and ethos of their new provider.

    For both it's the impact of often going from a very small team to a much larger one with a wider variety of scenarios and equipment to deal with.

    What impact has BSF had on your job role/description?

    Th thing to remember is that outsourcing does not have to keep your role exactly the same - you are outsourced on the same terms and conditions but it does not guarantee your role will be identical - often it is not - often this can be a good thing for you as it gives you the chance to do something new and more interesting.

    Have you lost members of your team because of BSF?

    There is nearly always loss during the outsourcing process - on a couple of fronts.

    1. Staff panic before the process happens and run out and find a different job. Often if you are not careful you can lose good staff this way if they get nervous and you cannot allay their fears.

    2. After the process has completed some people cannot cope with the change of circumstances and move on.

    3. The MSP may decided that it doesn't need you and make you redundant - don't panic this is a very little used option and the evidence for it has to be bullet-proof or it's a world of hurt for the MSP.

    Have you lost pay due to BSF?

    You do not lose pay or benefits as part of the process - you must not be disadvantaged during the TUPE process. If your role then changes or the employer introduces a new whole company policy on say - company cars - you can be subsumed into this.

    But in essence no, you should not lose pay.

    Hope that makes sense and is helpful. Sorry it's not more specific to BSF.

  7. 7 Thanks to mrmontymick:

    bossman (13th November 2009), e_g_r (12th November 2009), GoldenWonder (24th November 2009), kevbaz (1st December 2009), stevef1 (12th November 2009), tmcd35 (13th November 2009), todav (13th November 2009)

  8. #21
    stevef1's Avatar
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    Wow thanks for the answers so far, if anyone wants to PM me please feel free to do so.

    From what i understand some schools in the Bristol area have had a negative BSF experience anyone care to elaborate on this, first hand info is, of course, much better.

    From my point of view i work at a school that’s about 40 years old its dilapidated and is a pretty bad state, the network has been “bolted” on, as a lot are i guess, as and when we have required new computer room etc so if a managed service provider came in as part of the BSF project and rewired the school etc the that does not seem to bad, from talking to several people the managed service provider will take the newer computers at the existing school and add to these to make the total computers for the school is this correct? I cant see this happening at our site to be honest.

    What does the managed service provide can anyone tell me what they ended up with and how it works for them (PM me if you don’t want to post)

    Who creates the new domain structure, does it become part of a large domain of all the schools in the project or is it managed on site by what’s left of the ICT Support team or will this depend on who gets the contract?

    stevef1

  9. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    No, that is still a variation. When you are tuped over, the company is legally required to maintain the same contract. They can't simply say 'right, we've tuped you over, now that you're ours, we can ignore tupe'. That's not how TUPE works. TUPE is law, not policy.
    I don't know anything about the law concerning TUPE but surely it has to be possible to vary the contract after the changeover? If it wasn't, you'd be stuck on the same pay for ever, for example, and I presume that doesn't happen (or does it???)

    You wouldn't expect your contract to be frozen for ever if you stayed working at the same school - there are often changes in small ways and sometimes major ways - so it seems reasonable to assume that the same could be true in BSF (but, as I say, I don't know anything about this so could be talking b*ll*cks!)

  10. #23

    localzuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srochford View Post
    I don't know anything about the law concerning TUPE but surely it has to be possible to vary the contract after the changeover? If it wasn't, you'd be stuck on the same pay for ever, for example, and I presume that doesn't happen (or does it???)

    You wouldn't expect your contract to be frozen for ever if you stayed working at the same school - there are often changes in small ways and sometimes major ways - so it seems reasonable to assume that the same could be true in BSF (but, as I say, I don't know anything about this so could be talking b*ll*cks!)
    My contract is set. The only time it has changed is if, by mutual agreement, both myself and my manager changes something. One side can't unilaterally change a contract, that's not how contracts work.

  11. #24

    broc's Avatar
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    As I understand it, if you are TUPE'd to a new employer, you do so under your existing terms and conditions & these remain in force unless the new employer can demonstrate that for organisational, technical, or economic reasons they must vary these to maintain their business.

    These ETO reasons cannot be whimsical and must stand up to any potential challenge in an employment tribunal. It does however mean that in theory a TUPE'd employee could face relocation, pay cuts, or even redundancy despite TUPE protection.

    There is another consideration; once TUPE'd your future career progression may be hampered by remaining on your pre_TUPE terms and conditions; in order to progress you may be asked to sign a new contract which is no longer covered by TUPE.

  12. Thanks to broc from:

    mrmontymick (13th November 2009)

  13. #25
    mrmontymick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    As I understand it, if you are TUPE'd to a new employer, you do so under your existing terms and conditions & these remain in force unless the new employer can demonstrate that for organisational, technical, or economic reasons they must vary these to maintain their business.

    These ETO reasons cannot be whimsical and must stand up to any potential challenge in an employment tribunal. It does however mean that in theory a TUPE'd employee could face relocation, pay cuts, or even redundancy despite TUPE protection.

    There is another consideration; once TUPE'd your future career progression may be hampered by remaining on your pre_TUPE terms and conditions; in order to progress you may be asked to sign a new contract which is no longer covered by TUPE.
    Some good points in there particularly the last one, that does often happen - if you move to a new position in the company, are promoted etc you will be asked to take on a new contract under the MSP's standard terms and conditions at which point you do lose any TUPE protection.

    ETO's are difficult to substantiate a lot of the time which is why they are not widely used. To be honest I think employers, although most will deny this, tend to sideline TUPE'd people that they want to get rid of in the hope that they will get bored or p*ssed off and leave. Come to think of it they will probably all deny that(!).

  14. #26
    BlogRat's Avatar
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    Smile

    Having been through the process in the last year, basicly mrmontymick has got it just about right.

  15. #27
    PeteM's Avatar
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    Kind of on topic, I've been told categorically by our Union rep that if the IT providor of our new BSF school needs, say, 5 IT techies and there are 7 currently in the 2 schools that are merging, then on Day 1 the IT company can make 2 redundant making TUPE irrelevant. Any comments on that?

  16. #28
    skunk's Avatar
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    Judging by the amount of conjecture and loud sound of no-one who is post-BSF complaining I would say that any gagging, contractural or not, is working a treat for the MSPs / Schools.

    Would you slag off the people who are paying you, on a public forum?

    My experiences are

  17. #29
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    My union rep during the TUPE process was rubbish, turned up late if at all. The HR dept from the LA were awful, about 2 years before at a meeting one of them announced that there were 9 technicians but only 7 jobs!
    PeteM is right, on day one the new company can get rid of you providing they can put up a good case but TUPE protects your terms and conditions so your length of service counts towards any payoff. How many people do you know have been made redundant by the IT provider after BSF? I had all the concerns and worries about the process as everyone else and even looked for other jobs. The fact is the MSPs have not got loads of staff waiting to move into schools to take all the jobs, what they have got is loads of people in schools already waiting to fill the jobs.
    I got TUPE’d last year and to be honest it’s been a good experience for me, OK the job has changed a bit but I’m still enjoying it. Same pay, same holidays plus extra benefits such as BUPA cover.

  18. #30
    donutcat's Avatar
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    As someone who is about to go through the TUPE process into an academy I have been asking these sorts of questions to HR, my union rep and the academy and have had the following responses:

    How long are my pay and conditions protected for?
    The law does not state for support staff any minimum length, however you cannot be disadvantaged because of the transfer, i.e. any change in my situation not caused by the transfer can be put through after the transfer has happened, although in our case the academy has agreed to the 3 years that teachers get.

    Can I be made redundant after the transfer?
    Yes it is possible, but only if the job role disappears because of a change not connected to the transfer, for example a restructure of the organisation after the transfer has happened, and there would have to be bullet-proof evidence that it was not planned before the transfer.

    Can my contract change for the better, and is that protected?
    Any change in pay or terms and conditions must be agreed by both parties, but keeps your basic pay and conditions protected if you do not agree to them. If you do agree and sign a new contract then you are a normal employee, although I didn't get enough clarification on this point to satisfy me that I knew fully what would happen.

    What if there are less jobs at my hierarchical level?
    This may be an academy specific questions, as with a move to an established company things would be different. We have been guaranteed no reduction in staff number, and that there would be a job matching process. If there is no job at the level i am at, then I would drop to the next level down and be matched in there, with no detriment to my pay or conditions.

    What about pensions?
    Local government pension carries on, and continuity of service is unaffected while I remain employed by the academy. If my new positions was on a lower pay scale than mine my pensionionable pay would reduce to meet that. This is not the same as teachers as their pension is fully protected. It is also worth noting that if I leave the academy to work for another school that is still in the local authority my length of service restarts from 0, as I am deemed not to have transferred from one internal division to another. This would be the same if TUPE'd to RM and then went back to schools.

    Feel free to check with your unions reps, as most TUPE processes are tailored to the needs of the transfer.

    DC

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