+ Post New Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 64
BSF Thread, BSF + TUPE = RM in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Originally Posted by russdev They did that with NGFL and look at what happened some schools spent it on toners... ...
  1. #46

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,529
    Thank Post
    527
    Thanked 2,648 Times in 2,049 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    925
    Quote Originally Posted by russdev View Post
    They did that with NGFL and look at what happened some schools spent it on toners...

    Russ
    Were those schools held to account for their actions?

  2. #47

    russdev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Leicestershire
    Posts
    6,985
    Thank Post
    735
    Thanked 559 Times in 374 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Rep Power
    206
    That is where model falls down they were meant to be but I am sure there were some LAs which didn't have man power to do that and problem is the same thing would happen in BSF if it was given direct to schools or even LA to certain degree.

    Russ

  3. #48

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    10,074
    Thank Post
    1,384
    Thanked 1,889 Times in 1,170 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    614
    Nope ... because everyone said "you can trust schools ..." and with Curriculum Online you had suppliers and schools both fiddling it to by buying hardware (and yes ... whether Curriculum Online was value for money I would suggest having a chat with Ian Lynch from The Learning Machine who will give you chapter and verse on how it could have been spent better!) and schools that just plainly ignored the ring-fencing and used it for what they wanted. Auditors rarely checked and it was easy to blag if they did.

    Because of this lack of accountability someone decided that the LA should have more say and control ... and the LAs have to be answerable to someone so they produced PfS and parts of DCSF (with other groups involved such as Becta, NCSL, SSAT).

    And now we have concerns that the people holding LAs accountable are not doing it properly (or the way we like it). It is a lose - lose situation for anyone involved.

    Back to the request about "What has BSF ever done for us ..." do you mean for IT, for school improvement, against the tagline of raising life chances for learners, value for money? I only ask because I am happy to go out and point out examples of good and bad, but not get shouted down for talking about the wrong thing. (And for a start of good and bad ... mainly bad ... the previously posted webcasts from Bristol in this forum are a place to start!)

  4. #49

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,529
    Thank Post
    527
    Thanked 2,648 Times in 2,049 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    925
    The problem is, the people at the LA level and above aren't in each school. They don't see what each school needs. This is not their fault though, this is a systemic problem - no decision maker could spend time in each of the dozens/hundreds of schools they make decisions about. So instead, they take a sample of random schools - each drastically different from each other, and then use a 'one size fits all' brush to try and make something work in all of them. Which, face it, was already shown not to work. That sort of thinking was why schools now control their own finances and not the LA.

  5. Thanks to localzuk from:

    webman (25th September 2009)

  6. #50

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    10,074
    Thank Post
    1,384
    Thanked 1,889 Times in 1,170 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    614
    Yep ... and lots of schools screw up their finances which is why FMSiS was introduced to get a level of accountability. OFSTED only does so much nowadays, ICTMark doesn't cover what you need to really and it still comes down to trying to apply large scale implementations of the same things that made the top schools the best.

    The problem is when any chance of flexibility gets driven out of the project. I still hold hopes that Lewisham has bucked the trend and am waiting to see what improvements it delivers. Cambridgeshire are also planning some interesting things like all networks should allow for kids to bring their own devices in *with no risk to the rest of the network*, something the bidders reckon can be done and managed within the budget.

    Some more down sides ... fixed price books when better deals can be done on an ad-hoc basis, no chance of flexibility because you get what you are given, the technical skillset in the school is diminished so that there is little chance of anything extra being added ad-hoc and any future changes have to be minutely planned ... limited scope for innovation ...

  7. #51

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,529
    Thank Post
    527
    Thanked 2,648 Times in 2,049 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    925
    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Yep ... and lots of schools screw up their finances which is why FMSiS was introduced to get a level of accountability. OFSTED only does so much nowadays, ICTMark doesn't cover what you need to really and it still comes down to trying to apply large scale implementations of the same things that made the top schools the best.
    So there you have it, the solution is not the current BSF style system, but one where schools are held properly accountable for their decisions. In my mind, there are just far too many downsides to the current method of 'improvement' to justify it carrying on. They're wanting to be transformational, they need to start with their own project.

  8. 2 Thanks to localzuk:

    broc (25th September 2009), webman (25th September 2009)

  9. #52

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    10,074
    Thank Post
    1,384
    Thanked 1,889 Times in 1,170 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    614
    The schools that get the most out of BSF are the ones that have started the transformation themselves.The barriers with the LA arise when there are differences of opinion about what the change needs to be. Sometimes it is the school at fault, sometimes it is the LA.

  10. #53

    broc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,046
    Thank Post
    104
    Thanked 401 Times in 265 Posts
    Rep Power
    151
    more down sides...

    technicians driven by a job queue, watching the clock because they are on fixed repair times & they get kicked by their employer because they have to pay penalties if things aren't fixed in time....

    Support staff who are no longer part of the school team; take no part in the extended school life; no time to support out of school activities, helping out with events etc. No vested interest in the school anymore......

    Loss of local knowledge of the school, the people, the ways people work, the internal school politics that govern the pecking order & the way to get things done.....

    Schools being overcharged for replacement equipment, no onsite repairs, no cannibalising equipment to keep it going that little bit longer.... it's broken, swap it out... send the broken item offsite for repair... bill the school full-price for parts, engineering time. courier service etc etc

    I am sure there are others.

    I recently saw an advert for several private sector ICT service managers to help run the managed service in a nearby LA.... £60k pa plus..... schools are going to be paying for these

  11. Thanks to broc from:

    webman (25th September 2009)

  12. #54
    bandgeekmafia78's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Salford
    Posts
    382
    Thank Post
    88
    Thanked 22 Times in 14 Posts
    Rep Power
    22
    Hi

    I'm a bit late to read this thread and relatively new to the concept of the BSF project. From what I understand, BSF doesn't seem like a particularly good thing to introduce to the majority of schools.

    I was just wondering if any schools were currently involved in the 1st phase of transitition and whether they could confirm or deny all of the negative points raised in this thread...?

  13. #55

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    10,074
    Thank Post
    1,384
    Thanked 1,889 Times in 1,170 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    614
    I think it is closer to say that the IT portion of BSF is not popular here ... most people don't have too many complaints about the buildings (apart from the concern they will not last and will need lots of changes to do what is needed and will be built by people who have already been fined for illegal / unfair practices) or the education changes it can bring ...

    But yes ... there are problems with it.

  14. #56

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    895
    Thank Post
    64
    Thanked 171 Times in 140 Posts
    Rep Power
    56
    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    technicians driven by a job queue, watching the clock because they are on fixed repair times & they get kicked by their employer because they have to pay penalties if things aren't fixed in time....
    As opposed to technicians not fixing things on time? Do you not use a HelpDesk and have SLAs? We do and that's the way it's done in the real world. Can't see why this should be a problem - it's certainly more of an argument in favour of BSF, not against it.

    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    I recently saw an advert for several private sector ICT service managers to help run the managed service in a nearby LA.... £60k pa plus..... schools are going to be paying for these
    60k is stuff-all in real-world IT management jobs, but unheard of in state schools. If BSF gets me a decent wage for doing the same job then I've suddenly seen a reason to embrace it. Thanks broc, I'd assumed it was all doom & gloom!

  15. #57

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,529
    Thank Post
    527
    Thanked 2,648 Times in 2,049 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    925
    Quote Originally Posted by timzim View Post
    As opposed to technicians not fixing things on time? Do you not use a HelpDesk and have SLAs? We do and that's the way it's done in the real world. Can't see why this should be a problem - it's certainly more of an argument in favour of BSF, not against it.
    As opposed to being able to be flexible on the ground. Like it or not, schools are not 'the real world' as you put it. ie. they aren't businesses.

    60k is stuff-all in real-world IT management jobs, but unheard of in state schools. If BSF gets me a decent wage for doing the same job then I've suddenly seen a reason to embrace it. Thanks broc, I'd assumed it was all doom & gloom!
    Indeed, that is potentially one good aspect of BSF - but whilst pay is important to me, job satisfaction is more important.

  16. #58

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Gosport, Hampshire
    Posts
    10,074
    Thank Post
    1,384
    Thanked 1,889 Times in 1,170 Posts
    Blog Entries
    19
    Rep Power
    614
    Quote Originally Posted by localzuk View Post
    As opposed to being able to be flexible on the ground. Like it or not, schools are not 'the real world' as you put it. ie. they aren't businesses.
    You mean there aren't businesses out there that need to have the same level of flexibility as schools? Try having a chat to Ray Fleming about Microsoft then, or John Crouch about Apple, or folk at Unilever, Ford, BBC .... the main difference between schools and some businesses / areas of public sector is the difficulty in showing RoI. This is why RoI is stripped out of FITS but important in ITIL.

    Indeed, that is potentially one good aspect of BSF - but whilst pay is important to me, job satisfaction is more important.
    Yep ... which is why I moved to the LA rather than a BSF provider other commercial company ... but having spoken to folk at Northgate and RM they seem to have job satisfaction too. And there are some that don't and hate it ... and think their management know bugger all about IT in education and are only in it for self-interest ... hmmm ... sounds almost like a rant about teachers or senior manglement in schools.

    Different day, same $|-|!t

  17. #59

    broc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,046
    Thank Post
    104
    Thanked 401 Times in 265 Posts
    Rep Power
    151
    Maybe I was a little brief;

    The service management jobs I described are 'overhead'. These are posts sitting above the staff who will actually deliver the service to the schools; they are not technical, they are there to manage the service delivery team and ensure the MSP gets the maximum revenue out of the schools. They will be funded by providing less onsite support for schools. This means fewer, lower skilled technicians per school.

    Anyone who has worked as part of a services organisation or outsourcing will probably recognise the role I am referring to.

    As far as working to SLAs and using a helpdesk; of course we have these, but by being school employees we can and frequently do change our priorities to respond to the needs of the school. This flexibility will vanish, as it does in any company with outsourced services.

    Being a queue-driven onsite technician may not be a lot of fun for many; it means initial problem determination is done by a remote helpdesk, who will log the call & schedule a repair action, adding it to your work queue.

    Let's suppose it is a dead laptop, either won't power on, or will not boot into a workable OS. A typical KPI in a managed service might mean you are given 30 mins to deal with a defective laptop or your employer has to pay a fine.

    This means there will be little or no time to do any problem determination. All you can do is collect a spare off a shelf in a storeroom & swap it for the failing unit. You will then stick the dud in a box & log a call to collect it for repair offsite, then its on to the next job on the queue.

  18. #60

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Surburbia
    Posts
    2,178
    Thank Post
    74
    Thanked 307 Times in 243 Posts
    Rep Power
    116
    As for Transformational change.
    Nooooooooo.... wake up damnit...that's gullible manglement bible stuff, that largely American con where they take 1 + 1 = 2, wrap it in barely comprehensible gobbledygook, add a large measure of evangelism and sell it back to you as revelation. All that is good for is increasing the entropy of the universe ...taking perfectly simple concepts, useful words, bluring and obsfucating them... progressively sucking a) money out of people's pockets, b) the life out of our ability to communicate with any precision.

    Let's stick to the plot: In most people's minds transformation tends to imply that magical metamorphosis stuff, it's a big change in appearance such as Frogs->Princes, and over on the cynics side Jekylls->Hydes. But with a rusty old maths hat on, Mr Frog needs to be man-sized because a transformation does not alter the value.

    Because it was uttered by politicians the phrase "educational transformation" is clearly intended to suggest magical variety that is going to increase value, and that implicitly means attainment: It's not just bricks & mortar, we're New Labour and great, substantial, enduring things will happen. And AIUI LAs/schools have to go along with that if they want the money i.e. need to concoct transformational strategies and visions. But because this is the real-world and significantly in this corner i.e. one wrapped up in an awful lot of regulation and red tape, we all know that in practice there is very little room for manoeuvre.

    So what happens? Well absolutely nothing I've yet seen mentioned about ICT comes anywhere close to being innovative enough to make a really significant difference: In many parts of the real-world it's mundane and some of it has been mundane for over a decade. But talking like that, saying "Ok, the plan is to catch up with current mainstream technology" doesn't get you the money does it? What you have to do is take all this relatively humdrum stuff and talk it up for all you're worth, as in over-enthuse, stir in whatever happens to be this week's mandatory jargon to "sell" it, tick all the boxes in the approved manner, magnify realistically achievable benefits by a couple of orders of magnitude, spin, spin, spin. But please don't start to believe it's truth.

    Yes you can always make things better, but it won't be "transformational". A couple of e-words can benefit i.e. you can makes things a bit more "efficient" and a bit more "effective". But that's pretty much what you're guaranteed to get if you throw in a decent new IT infrastructure and (most importantly) throw sufficient training. tips, tricks, alternative methods and so on at the people who use it to do their jobs.

    they realised the mistake was always putting the technology at the front of the decision and then playing catch-up.<snip>I get frustrated to hear that the IT Managers who really understand education are excluded from what goes on
    The way Policy Exchange tell it the teachers have generally been blanked from all this as well. Now whether that's because of manglement arrogance or ignorance I couldn't say, but it is not what I would expect from the collective brainpower of bunch of people who one way or another, apparently cost us an average of £80K p/a each.
    Last edited by PiqueABoo; 27th September 2009 at 11:06 PM.

  19. 5 Thanks to PiqueABoo:

    Butuz (28th September 2009), localzuk (27th September 2009), siuko (28th September 2009), timzim (28th September 2009), webman (27th September 2009)



SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. News: TUPE Tribuneral Ruling
    By Gonk in forum BSF
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 30th June 2009, 01:04 PM
  2. BSF & TUPE
    By Deaks in forum BSF
    Replies: 82
    Last Post: 1st June 2009, 12:55 PM
  3. TUPE - The RM Way
    By Benji1 in forum BSF
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 19th August 2008, 06:58 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 15th July 2008, 06:43 PM
  5. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 26th October 2007, 12:41 AM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •