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BSF Thread, Do SIMS managers come under BSF? in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; I know IT Support staff come under the BSF arm and will be taken on by the BSF contract winner. ...
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    Kyle's Avatar
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    Do SIMS managers come under BSF?

    I know IT Support staff come under the BSF arm and will be taken on by the BSF contract winner.

    But do SIMS Managers come under this? I am unsure as they are support Admin staff and run the MIS system, but do they come under the BSF arm and get employed by the managed service?

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    beeswax's Avatar
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    The view at our school is that they don't come within the remit of a managed service. Although SIMS support will come via whatever you buy into, I don't think an MSP will want to support, or tupe a SIMS manager as I can't see where the profit in that will come from.

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    Face-Man's Avatar
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    It depends if the role of SIMS manager is to install updates and issue passwords that would be taken on by the managed service. If it is to add and interpret data it would not. As most SIS roles probably combine the two it comes down to the school and if they want to keep that role and modify the JD.

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    conehead's Avatar
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    Some BSF companies use their own MIS, so your SIMS skills may be surplus to requirements, who are the bidders?

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    In my LA the LA MIS support team are likely to join the MSP, as will the school based ICT support staff who routinely carry out software maintenance on their school MIS servers.

    The school based SIMS admin staff will remain on the school payroll.

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    budgester's Avatar
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    I think this is where the BSF really falls down.

    Say if you have a good network setup, where when a new student/staff is added to the MIS it automatically provisions a new user account, feeds into your cashless catering, and door access control, where is the border between BSF and the school ?

    Does BSF cover networked door access control, and security cameras, cashless catering ?

    Does it cover the MIS or just the hardware it runs on ?

    Who does backups ? SIMS manager or BSF ?

    I could see in very short order the BSF network being down a token server and workstation, and then the rest of the network being built up again in house.

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    Sylv3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budgester View Post
    I think this is where the BSF really falls down.

    Say if you have a good network setup, where when a new student/staff is added to the MIS it automatically provisions a new user account, feeds into your cashless catering, and door access control, where is the border between BSF and the school ?

    Does BSF cover networked door access control, and security cameras, cashless catering ?

    Does it cover the MIS or just the hardware it runs on ?

    Who does backups ? SIMS manager or BSF ?

    I could see in very short order the BSF network being down a token server and workstation, and then the rest of the network being built up again in house.
    They will all be different, some may have the servers in school but I would imagine the majority of LA's will have their servers running externally, therefore backups etc will be the responsibility of the managed service.

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    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budgester View Post
    I think this is where the BSF really falls down.

    Say if you have a good network setup, where when a new student/staff is added to the MIS it automatically provisions a new user account, feeds into your cashless catering, and door access control, where is the border between BSF and the school ?
    Wherever the contract puts it ...

    Does BSF cover networked door access control, and security cameras, cashless catering ?
    Yep. A number of these areas a building management issues and are commonly out of the hands of support staff in many schools anyway.

    Does it cover the MIS or just the hardware it runs on ?
    Most bids will stay with the LA preferred option unless it is part of the deal. This would mean that the support for the hardware is the MSP and the support for the software will be a bit of both ... pretty much like many schools have it now.

    Who does backups ? SIMS manager or BSF ?
    Who does it now? Many schools it is done by IT Support, not by the MIS manager because MIS data is one of many sets of data that require backup. Treating it as a separate entity doesn't really make much sense in pre-BSF schools, never mind post-BSF.

    I could see in very short order the BSF network being down a token server and workstation, and then the rest of the network being built up again in house.
    The network (meaning domain and systems on it, the network infrastructure and the design of it all) is likely to be rebuilt, yes ... don't really understand where you are going with the token server / workstation comment.

    Some BSF contracts may opt for a central MIS, some may look at having schools based but with a central interchange (eg for SIMS schools, making use of things like partnership Xchange) but this is not that much difference to many LAs having systems that take attendance data on a regular basis anyway.

    It is almost going to the American model based on Districts I suppose.

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    Face-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budgester View Post
    I think this is where the BSF really falls down.

    Say if you have a good network setup, where when a new student/staff is added to the MIS it automatically provisions a new user account, feeds into your cashless catering, and door access control, where is the border between BSF and the school ?

    Does BSF cover networked door access control, and security cameras, cashless catering ?

    Does it cover the MIS or just the hardware it runs on ?

    Who does backups ? SIMS manager or BSF ?

    I could see in very short order the BSF network being down a token server and workstation, and then the rest of the network being built up again in house.
    GumbleDook is right it depends on the contract what school choose to include but from the investigations I've done it would appear that everything technical and building related comes under the LEP (managed service + LA +psf) including your premise staff being TUPED. That just leaves the Data managed by the school.
    So in short the LEP will in install and maintain Computers, telephones, cctv,cashless catering, broadband,backup, severs, MIS,photocopiers,library systems,entrance systems,wireless,mobile devices, electronic registation, finance systems etc. Schools will be able to choose what these are based on the contract ie a MAC will cost x based on maintenance and upkeep as well as hardware cost. What they will not do is write the timetable, analyse the GCSE results, report attendance manage your budgets etc.

    Again these are up for discussion but the more that are in the the contract the more £ the company can make

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    budgester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Face-Man View Post
    GumbleDook is right it depends on the contract what school choose to include but from the investigations I've done it would appear that everything technical and building related comes under the LEP (managed service + LA +psf) including your premise staff being TUPED. That just leaves the Data managed by the school.
    If I understand the BSF correctly the schools actually don't get to choose the contract, It is decided for them at LEA level, is this correct ?

    So what staff would be TUPED over ?

    ICT, Site, Kitchen, Cleaning. What about other technicians such as science and technology.

    And when staff get TUPED, what does this actually mean ? Could all staff be moved around schools in a LEA to get a balance, or moved to head office of the winning bidder, and then required to work on other projects outside of education establishments.

    We also have a list of ICT providers on the wiki for ICT providers would it also be worth adding to that list for providers of the other services.

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    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    The provider of other services is the lead partner. If they sub-contract it out then that is not specified in the contract.

    Other technicians such as science techs, etc are not likely to be included as their work is not in line with anything specific in the contract (unless the schools and LA add it in).

    Staff TUPEd across are usually the NM, the techies and sometimes techies who are so closely linked with techiness that it is hard to distinguish (VLE Techies, music, reprographics) but the latter is not as common as far as I have seen.

    The LA / LEP have final say on the contracts because they are the people with experience and specialist staff for dealing with multi-million pound contracts, whereas schools would have to buy this expertise in. Actually, some LAs have to buy it in too ... but the money goes to the LA, not to the school so the buck has to stop with the LA. LAs are expected to allow schools to have significant input, but not to the detriment of other schools ... it is meant to be a fair and balanced approach.

    SIMS managers tend to be in the group as other administrative staff so unless it was specified in the contract then they are unlikely to be TUPEd too. Perhaps it depends on what you mean by SIMS manager ... if you are talking about supporting the systems that SIMS runs on ... then possibly yes ... if you are talking about administering and supporting the use of SIMS then unlikely to be TUPEd.

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    Face-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by budgester View Post
    If I understand the BSF correctly the schools actually don't get to choose the contract, It is decided for them at LEA level, is this correct ?
    Yes and No. The schools need to be fully on board and there Governors have to sign up to it or PSF will pull the plug. However the LA is who owns the contract and so ultimately make the decision.


    Quote Originally Posted by budgester View Post
    And when staff get TUPED, what does this actually mean ? Could all staff be moved around schools in a LEA to get a balance, or moved to head office of the winning bidder, and then required to work on other projects outside of education establishments.
    What it means may depend on the winning bidder. ie a thin client specialist wins the bid and you have no experience of that. Under TUPE they would have to maintain your terms and conditions (pay, pension and holiday entitlement) but they may decide that your skills are best served away from your current school and that you will need to have some retraining. Also you may be an expert in that field and they will then change your contract and offer you more money (be warned defiantly seek advice as once you except the change they are not as strictly bound by TUPE regulations).

    It would obviously be good to get some view from staff who have been TUPEd. I know of some and all I can say is they are earning a lot more money but have far less flexibility and time to chat these days

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