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BSF Thread, The ICT Managed Service in BSF - Video in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Originally Posted by TonyJF In the interests of fairness, you have no idea who these people are because I wasn't ...
  1. #76

    broc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyJF View Post
    In the interests of fairness, you have no idea who these people are because I wasn't generalising as you were, I had specific people in mind, and in my opinion they are idiots...if opinions are stil allowed.
    Opinions are allowed.... in my opinion I have yet to come across an idiot working in a school..... or at least at a normal state primary or secondary school

    Dictionary definition of idiot

    1. an utterly foolish or senseless person.
    2. Psychology. a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.

    Do you have people working at your school that fit either definition? If not don't call them idiots, it is unprofessional.
    Last edited by broc; 12th February 2009 at 09:05 AM.

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    Gibson335's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    Opinions are allowed.... in my opinion I have yet to come across an idiot working in a school..... or at least at a normal state primary or secondary school

    Dictionary definition of idiot

    1. an utterly foolish or senseless person.
    2. Psychology. a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.

    Do you have people working at your school that fit either definition? If not don't call them idiots, it is unprofessional.
    In answer to your question, yes we do...we also have pious, sanctimonious ones, too. And who the hell are you to tell me what I should or should not call them? Get over yourself and move on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kevin_lane View Post
    i love this bit



    ROFL i cant belive this. i mean come on why would you say that. to me that means if you cant fix it or understand how to then don't be a technican. and plus it makes you look stupid
    Are you really saying that you know how to fix every problems and never have to ask anyone else for help? Most of the other people on Edugeek are here because there are things they don't know and they're asking for help!

    For me, a key thing which marks out a good technician (and I'm not in any way suggesting that the people described on the video are good or bad technicians) is that they recognise their limits and know when and how to ask for help, use the help they're given and learn new things.

  4. #79
    Messa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyJF View Post
    In answer to your question, yes we do...we also have pious, sanctimonious ones, too. And who the hell are you to tell me what I should or should not call them? Get over yourself and move on.
    Amen to that brother!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    @Diello

    I had drafted a lengthy response but instead I'll just pose another question. Is BSF just about buildings or IT? Has anyone here considered the educational side of things ... curriculum redesign? The idea that someone designs the educational and then looks for tools to do the job?

    I am not saying the issues you raise are not valid, far from it ... but when a head is given a choice between a delivered service that actually means that there can be major changes in the way things work at the school and staying where they are ... what do you think they will do?
    Wow you do manage to perplex me with some of your statments. It is now the responcibility of the IT staff to redesign the curriculum as well? otherwise they should be binned and replaced?

    Again I partially agree with you, it is about a change in education and I have actually been active in trying to develop extentions and substitutions to the curriculum for this purpose to expand one of my schools IT usage.

    I do think that this is a shortsighted narrow view of the problem though, if it is anything like NZ the curriculum is set at a national level and major changes should come from there not some corporate mouth piece. It also fails to address the actual issue in most cases which is teacher that are simply unqualified to teach what they are required to. The only solution to this is to reset the training bar on teachers themselves, we get freshly minted teachers that cannot even turn a computer on. How are they supposed to teach anything with IT in it.

    Yes the large corporate hammer will be able to elicit more fear and cooperation from teachers and schools on the matter of training and funding but the root of the problem still remains - the criteria for a teaching qualification itself.

    This seems to be another goventment attempt to patch the problem rather than actually dareing to stand up to the teachers, call them on their failings and change the qualification guidelines to something appropriate.

    All of these high-tech, high impact, flashy initiatives are doomed to failure so long as the people delivering it are not legaly required to know what they are talking about.

    The actual answer I beleive would be a manditory retraining. Give all teachers a 5 year window to retrain on the tools that they actually need to do their jobs and then obsolete the certification of anyone who has not retrained.

    I know that this is probably a deeply unpopular idea but I truly beleive that the only way to change education is from the source. I freely admit that there are many teachers who are competent in technology and are fully capible of doing their jobs but I can't say that all of this competence has come from training. Patching the problem with vision statments and corporate brutality may push the standards up a little but the core issues will remain untill the actual root causes are dealt with.


    I also agree that BSF will be fantastic for schools with rubbish ICT however if the OP had this sent to him as anything other than a joke it is inflamitory. If the person who sent it was suggesting that the OP was like the replaced IT provider then it is practicly slander from the sounds of it. I also can't view it due to the 'perfect' IT of the site failing without an error message.

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  7. #81

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    Lol ... I can see you point about it sounding like I am saying it is our job to redesign ...

    Perhaps a rephrasing to clarify.

    It is our job not to ignore the education aspect and to do what we can to understand the change needed to provide a good level of education. There have been a number of memebers who have previously said that they have no interest in teh education aspect and they are just sorting out the network, domain, etc. I have previously said this is short-sighted, and still say it.

    Presently I am having the phrase 'intelligent client' thrown around (I am the intelligent client within our team when it comes to dealing with the council IT team) and so schools need the same when dealing with BSF. Someone needs to be the translator and give the information to senior leaders to challenge things, but this can only be done if you are in a strong position to start with.

    Throwing money for curriculum online and IWB projects is patching things. This can be more radical if done right.

    Teacher training is not the only answer ... and schools already have a duty to provide suitable CPD to staff ... and that includes training on tools ... but those tools may be chosen by support staff, may be chosen by teachers or may be chosen by the SLT ... and I can anyone think of what one of the common moans that we hear over behind the red door? Oh yes ... training teachers how to use software. So we have a case of recognising teachers need training on tools, not being able to say who is best placed to choose those tools and then a group of people (not a majority admittedly) who don't see it as their job to do that. And it isn't for the lack of guidance about trainig staff either ... the TDA have made lots of advice available to schools, there are HLTAs who are meant to be given the chance to help provide CPD for staff, including on using technology (yeah ... instead of techies being ignored by teachers you now have a group of people that some unions don't like because they are taking teachers' jobs and they aren't even proper teachers!) So yeah ... CPD is important but if that is also something being ignored by management ... then removing it from the choice of the Head is the option given.

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    does anyone know specifically which schools the clowns / muppets / stooges that participated in the making of this video are from?

    apart from a having a deep desire to take them personally to task regarding their comments I would also cordially invite them to my school and show them what can be achieved by a very small (2 man) in house set-up

    I would also like to punch the bald guy, who looked a bit like Davros, until my fist went numb.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Lol ... I can see you point about it sounding like I am saying it is our job to redesign ...

    Perhaps a rephrasing to clarify.

    It is our job not to ignore the education aspect and to do what we can to understand the change needed to provide a good level of education. There have been a number of memebers who have previously said that they have no interest in teh education aspect and they are just sorting out the network, domain, etc. I have previously said this is short-sighted, and still say it.

    Presently I am having the phrase 'intelligent client' thrown around (I am the intelligent client within our team when it comes to dealing with the council IT team) and so schools need the same when dealing with BSF. Someone needs to be the translator and give the information to senior leaders to challenge things, but this can only be done if you are in a strong position to start with.

    Throwing money for curriculum online and IWB projects is patching things. This can be more radical if done right.

    Teacher training is not the only answer ... and schools already have a duty to provide suitable CPD to staff ... and that includes training on tools ... but those tools may be chosen by support staff, may be chosen by teachers or may be chosen by the SLT ... and I can anyone think of what one of the common moans that we hear over behind the red door? Oh yes ... training teachers how to use software. So we have a case of recognising teachers need training on tools, not being able to say who is best placed to choose those tools and then a group of people (not a majority admittedly) who don't see it as their job to do that. And it isn't for the lack of guidance about trainig staff either ... the TDA have made lots of advice available to schools, there are HLTAs who are meant to be given the chance to help provide CPD for staff, including on using technology (yeah ... instead of techies being ignored by teachers you now have a group of people that some unions don't like because they are taking teachers' jobs and they aren't even proper teachers!) So yeah ... CPD is important but if that is also something being ignored by management ... then removing it from the choice of the Head is the option given.
    I do agree with most of what you are saying in that post, I would preffer it if they were all trained up with propper basic skills before hand though as stuff like logging in, switching on and printing should really be covered before they are let loose on schools.

  10. #84

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    I am best mates with the guy who says urrmm alot throughout the video at 5:20 he he he am gonna um really rib him urmm for this !!!

    Not gonna say what he said about it all

  11. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienharrison View Post
    I am best mates with the guy who says urrmm alot throughout the video at 5:20 he he he am gonna um really rib him urmm for this !!!

    Not gonna say what he said about it all
    haha! those beans would be very interesting if they were spilt!!!!!!



    Butuz

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    Quote Originally Posted by damienharrison View Post
    I am best mates with the guy who says urrmm alot throughout the video at 5:20 he he he am gonna um really rib him urmm for this !!!

    Not gonna say what he said about it all
    Is he a member on here???

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    Nope he aint a memeber on here, am afraid I cant spill the beans as this is a public forum lol.

    A lot of the schools who have gone BSF from PFI in Leeds though dont seem too happy although approx £1mill may have made the deal sweeter =0)

    In defence of BSF and Managed services though, it is going to have setbacks though as all major projects do and in the long run this may make schools ict alot better as we have to remember - not every school has the high quality technicians and ict managment seen on Edugeek alot of schools may only have one technician who is still running windows 98 on the network - believe me I have seen it

  14. #88
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    your having a laugh right ? windows 98 ok which ever that school is needs a kick up their arss. why would you if my boss said to me were going to back to win98 i'd tell him to go and do one and if he wanted windows 98 on the comps he can install it.

    i spoke to a women called claire who is this bsf who is the ICT Education Lead for derby. and i was asking them for an update and the respons i got was we are in the waiting process i was thinking that somthing should of happend buy now they said they havent got the tenders ready yet they still working it i mean that was like 8 months ago or some thing like that we had a meeting at derby college what load of bull it was nothing to do with a technical meeting. i thought they would of like in put on what sort of a system we think they should have.

    it was just figures and tupe. and i was trying to say to her "what happens if a projecter build blows how is that going to help the teacher. as would need it replacing their and then" and the respons i got was " erm erm well im not too sure but stuff like this we have put in our tender request to meet a resonable respons time" i just said look tobe honest if a teacher has to go and ring some help desk then im sorry but your going to have major problems and we all know what that leads too STRIKE

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    Nope sadly not!! and this was only last year!!

    He was also running 1 NT4 server for 1000 students with approx 5 usb harddrives plugged in as a makeshift nas.

    On the other hand he was also running a linux box with no gui, that he manually backed up the schools single static page website (about 3 times a day)

    He had a shock once the school moved to a new PFI build and he had to try get his head around XP never mind 2003 lol

    BSF isnt as bad as people are making out but at the same time ICT techs being treated like Mushrooms (kept in dark and fed ) aint gonna build any confidence in the system.

    At the moment though people like AlexKnight who's only training was an advanced ECDL may benefit by the ammount of training BSF companies are willing to throw at their staff.

    i.e here is a sheet tick the boxes on which courses you want and why which can only make knowledge and the service provided 100000% better

    p.s as of today i have 35 days left of Contract at the NHS anyone know of anything going in the North East??

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    webman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by damienharrison View Post
    BSF isnt as bad as people are making out
    Do you have any links to impartial accounts to this effect, or is this just personal experience? If so, can you please elaborate as to which bits aren't as bad as we are making out.

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