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  1. #31
    Grommit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngreenwood View Post
    If mice and keyboards are vandalized they are replaced. Simple really.
    I don't think you undestand my statement..

    In my school with in-house ICT Support.. we have a box of Keyboards and all we do is, get notified that a keyboard has been broke, take one from the box, and plug it in..

    No additional cost to the school.. all they pay for is £5 for a new keyboard..

    now under your system can a teacher ask for a new keyboard and get it replaced within 5 min ?

  2. #32
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    Yes. We have a store room full of mice and keyboards. The keyboard will be replaced as soon as a technician is able to.

    I can understand the concerns with a managed service, but, attempting to get back on topic, in the case of RM managed services, everything I have seen suggests that TUPED employees are on exactly the same terms as hired employees.
    Last edited by ngreenwood; 23rd June 2008 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Addition

  3. #33

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    I was employed by a school that merged with another school. A new school was formed, and everyone had to re-apply for their jobs.

    The new job was advertised at a scale LOWER than what I was on. I got the job ahead of the person I was up against from the other school.

    I was told that the reason the job was at a lower scale was that our council was undergoing a Job Evaluation process and that the school had been told that the job was likely to pay at the lower scale.

    7 months later, job evaluation was completed and my job was put back UP to the scale it was before (not quite an identical scale, as the scales changed for the whole council, but roughly the same range).

    So I lost out on 7 months pay at a lower pay rate, and I am now having to start at the bottom of the higher pay scale rather than be at the top of it (as I would have been if I had not been downgraded).

    I've been told I have no rights to retain my higher rate of pay under TUPE because it was a merger of two schools and TUPE "does not apply"

    Overall in 3 years time I will be no worse off in annual pay, but at the moment I am being paid less than I would have been had I not been downgraded.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngreenwood View Post
    Yes. We have a store room full of mice and keyboards. The keyboard will be replaced as soon as a technician is able to.

    I can understand the concerns with a managed service, but, attempting to get back on topic, in the case of RM managed services, everything I have seen suggests that TUPED employees are on exactly the same terms as hired employees.
    Are you saying that under RM Managed Services you just go grab a keyboard if needed and there is no instructions from the RM Mothership authorising it ?

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by beeswax View Post
    Some of the stuff, such as managing the website and providing material for the LP (Learning Platform) isn't really what a techie should be doing, unless you were taken on with, for example, managing the school website as part of the job description, it's just that over the years some of us have grown into these posts, as in, "They want to charge how much to set up a website!? Let me have a looksee." My own situation is very similar, and unless my job description/role in school changes I'll have to drop a lot of stuff as well.
    You can understand the managed service provider wanting to protect their investment by only using "trusties" to handle their equipment, and I suppose you become a trustie by being tuped and then trained in the company ways.
    That's the thing, many tech jobs *do* have those things included. For example, my job description includes 'maintaining the school website'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngreenwood View Post
    Yes. We have a store room full of mice and keyboards. The keyboard will be replaced as soon as a technician is able to.

    I can understand the concerns with a managed service, but, attempting to get back on topic, in the case of RM managed services, everything I have seen suggests that TUPED employees are on exactly the same terms as hired employees.
    Except as I said in another thread my headteacher lets me be involved in lots of other stuff outside the remit of IT manager - e.g. working on drama productions, going on 3 residentials a year and countless other things. Obviously this is done on the basis the ICT work is sorted but he see the value in me being involved in the wider school community.

    I also work flexible hours - term time only + 4 weeks but am allowed to add up overtime and take it off holiday working. During the hols I pretty well suit myself which days I work and usually it's no more than 2 weeks a year.

    Now to me all of this makes it a good place to work and is the reason I stay in educational ICT - are RM seriously going to let me keep those terms and conditions? I think not!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngreenwood View Post
    Yes. We have a store room full of mice and keyboards. The keyboard will be replaced as soon as a technician is able to.

    I can understand the concerns with a managed service, but, attempting to get back on topic, in the case of RM managed services, everything I have seen suggests that TUPED employees are on exactly the same terms as hired employees.
    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    Except as I said in another thread my headteacher lets me be involved in lots of other stuff outside the remit of IT manager - e.g. working on drama productions, going on 3 residentials a year and countless other things. Obviously this is done on the basis the ICT work is sorted but he see the value in me being involved in the wider school community.

    I also work flexible hours - term time only + 4 weeks but am allowed to add up overtime and take it off holiday working. During the hols I pretty well suit myself which days I work and usually it's no more than 2 weeks a year.

    Now to me all of this makes it a good place to work and is the reason I stay in educational ICT - are RM seriously going to let me keep those terms and conditions? I think not!
    JCollins I think Ngrrrnwood was a technician before being TUPED so didn't have the privillages of being a Network Manager...

    So for him/her there is no real change in their job spec and conditions..

    Whereas you and I are working flexi hours and do basically as we please...

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit View Post
    JCollins I think Ngrrrnwood was a technician before being TUPED so didn't have the privillages of being a Network Manager...

    So for him/her there is no real change in their job spec and conditions..

    Whereas you and I are working flexi hours and do basically as we please...
    But to a large extent my technicians do something similar. As long as 1 person is in they can work a rota out. They also do lots of extra-curricular stuff. Same issues apply to them.

    The point I'm making is that TUPE and BSF is about so much more than just the actual job in hand - all the extras which are part of the package and (for me and others in my team) part of the enjoyment will vanish too.

  9. #39

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    Schools regularly use (& sadly sometimes misuse) their support staff when the need arises by asking them to perform duties that are outside their normal job scope/definition. This applies to all sorts of support staff in schools, not just ICT.

    For many support staff, these 'extra duties' are the reason why they work in schools and not in industry as they add variety and encourage support staff to be part of the 'team', directly supporting teaching & learning. If you look back through the many many discussions on BSF you will see time & time again people like grumbledook arguing the case for ICT staff to be more active in teaching & learning as a means of demonstrating the added value they bring to their schools.

    Unfortunately I don't think anyone, be it Partnership for Schools, the so called expert 'consultants' who are making a fortune out of BSF, or the LAs really appreciate or understand this. So it will come as a rude shock for some schools when they find they simply cannot ask a managed service ICT technician to 'lend a hand' in some unrelated area or task that is for the benefit of their students. Unless of course they pay extra, as it will not be part of the 'contract'

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    Schools regularly use (& sadly sometimes misuse) their support staff when the need arises by asking them to perform duties that are outside their normal job scope/definition.

    So it will come as a rude shock for some schools when they find they simply cannot ask a managed service ICT technician to 'lend a hand' in some unrelated area or task that is for the benefit of their students.
    It's worse than that though - I'm not asked to do lots of things - like many I actively volunteer and seek out opportunities to be a wider part of the school community. It's not a question of being "asked to perform duties" - I want to do these things. Taking them climbing, canoeing or directing a play for them alters my relationship with the students - hopefully making them more co-operative throughout their school lives.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings View Post
    It's worse than that though - I'm not asked to do lots of things - like many I actively volunteer and seek out opportunities to be a wider part of the school community. It's not a question of being "asked to perform duties" - I want to do these things. Taking them climbing, canoeing or directing a play for them alters my relationship with the students - hopefully making them more co-operative throughout their school lives.
    What's to stop you in the future though? If you know the staff and are happy to do it can you not just carry on and do it in a personal capacity? Or would RM take a dim view that it would interfere with your work?

    Although I have to say I am not favour of being TUPE'd. I left my last job because we were due to be TUPE'd. :-(
    Last edited by somabc; 23rd June 2008 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.Kay View Post
    I've been told I have no rights to retain my higher rate of pay under TUPE because it was a merger of two schools and TUPE "does not apply"
    Does anyone know if L.Kay was told the truth? I'll be in the very same position in a few years' time as there's a plan to close both my school and another nearby then merge the two into a new BSF school. If I stay will I be tuped or just plain shafted?

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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    What's to stop you in the future though? If you know the staff and are happy to do it can you not just carry on and do it in a personal capacity? Or would RM take a dim view that it would interfere with your work?

    Although I have to say I am not favour of being TUPE'd. I left my last job because we were due to be TUPE'd. :-(
    Well I can't see RM being happy with me upping sticks to North Wales for the week with a group or just deciding to spend an afternoon rehearsing kids etc.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by timzim View Post
    Does anyone know if L.Kay was told the truth? I'll be in the very same position in a few years' time as there's a plan to close both my school and another nearby then merge the two into a new BSF school. If I stay will I be tuped or just plain shafted?
    My guess would be that you would be just plain shafted. As both old schools would be closing, i'd assume the new school would have a new set of governors and an entirely new school. Therefore, the staff would be expected to apply to work there.

    If the school was swallowing up another school and keeping its name etc... then I'd assume differently though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timzim View Post
    Does anyone know if L.Kay was told the truth? I'll be in the very same position in a few years' time as there's a plan to close both my school and another nearby then merge the two into a new BSF school. If I stay will I be tuped or just plain shafted?
    I'm afraid Tupe doesn't apply to schools merging because it is the same employer. The local authorities employment stability policy will apply, probably the posts are made redundant. The new posts are ring-fenced for the 'at-risk' staff (competitive interview).
    The job evaluation that L.Kay was referring to was a separate process, no guarantee you won't be shafted though.

    Quote Originally Posted by jcollings
    Well I can't see RM being happy with me upping sticks to North Wales for the week with a group or just deciding to spend an afternoon rehearsing kids etc.
    It's not part of your job. and certainly won't be when RM have you.
    The TUPE Regulations preserve employees’ terms and conditions when a business or undertaking, or part of one, is transferred to a new employer. Any provision of any agreement (whether a contract of employment or not) is void so far as it would exclude or limit the rights granted under the Regulations.

  16. 2 Thanks to CyberNerd:

    L.Kay (26th June 2008), timzim (24th June 2008)

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