+ Post New Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17
BSF Thread, Public Sector Outsourcing gets Damning in report in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; http://www.kadiumpublishing.com/net.html Says it's a waste of money...
  1. #1
    Grommit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Weston-super-Mare
    Posts
    1,335
    Thank Post
    31
    Thanked 54 Times in 31 Posts
    Rep Power
    25

    Public Sector Outsourcing gets Damning in report

    http://www.kadiumpublishing.com/net.html

    Says it's a waste of money

  2. #2
    sahmeepee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Greater Manchester
    Posts
    795
    Thank Post
    20
    Thanked 70 Times in 42 Posts
    Rep Power
    34
    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit View Post
    Says it's a waste of money
    In other news: bear defecates in forest; pope believes in God

  3. #3
    Grommit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Weston-super-Mare
    Posts
    1,335
    Thank Post
    31
    Thanked 54 Times in 31 Posts
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by sahmeepee View Post
    In other news: bear defecates in forest; pope believes in God

    So why is no one listening?

  4. #4
    contink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    South Yorkshire
    Posts
    3,791
    Thank Post
    303
    Thanked 327 Times in 233 Posts
    Rep Power
    119
    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit View Post
    So why is no one listening?
    You remember all those discussions we have about the headteacher liking the idea of X, Y or Z shiny new, wonderful hardware gubbins that just goes "ping"... You know... the bit where we sit there and tell them that less shiny, less expensive, more effective, thing that goes ping, zoom and wow! is much better because we know what we're talking about...

    I'd liken the whole thing to that Far Side cartoon where there's two panels of a guy with a dog...

    "Bad Ginger, Don't shred the carpet Ginger!, Bad Ginger... "

    what Ginger hears

    "Blah Ginger, Blah blah blah, Ginger, Blah Ginger..."



    It's the same thing... seriously!

  5. #5

    localzuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minehead
    Posts
    18,332
    Thank Post
    525
    Thanked 2,596 Times in 2,014 Posts
    Blog Entries
    24
    Rep Power
    888
    Yep. Agreed. Many schools do seem to ignore the expertise of those they employ. I think it comes down to the whole 'teachers know best' in a school. For some reason many teachers and head teachers seem to think they can decide on the way forward with all aspects of T&L without actually knowing anything about what is needed to implement their ideas.

    It wouldn't happen in business. If a new system were to be implemented in a business, you can be damn well sure that people with expertise in those areas would be consulted.

  6. #6
    torledo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,928
    Thank Post
    168
    Thanked 155 Times in 126 Posts
    Rep Power
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by Grommit View Post
    http://www.kadiumpublishing.com/net.html

    Says it's a waste of money
    the the headline about the largest IPT project in education has me interested......what does it say ? Is it related to public sector IT waste.

  7. #7
    Grommit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Weston-super-Mare
    Posts
    1,335
    Thank Post
    31
    Thanked 54 Times in 31 Posts
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    the the headline about the largest IPT project in education has me interested......what does it say ? Is it related to public sector IT waste.

    Yes.. and how everybody is jumping on the Outsourcing bandwagon to save money ... that the saving money is a fantasy.. and it ultimately costs more.. a lot more.. also there is a loss of experienced personnel that know the company and have an in-depth knowledge what the companies aims are..

  8. #8

    broc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,046
    Thank Post
    104
    Thanked 401 Times in 265 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    What you have to realise is the public sector always lags behind the private sector, especially in IT. While the private sector has woken up to the fact that outsourcing IT doesn't save them money and de-skills their workforce the public sector still have that lesson to learn .........

  9. #9
    torledo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,928
    Thank Post
    168
    Thanked 155 Times in 126 Posts
    Rep Power
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    What you have to realise is the public sector always lags behind the private sector, especially in IT. While the private sector has woken up to the fact that outsourcing IT doesn't save them money and de-skills their workforce the public sector still have that lesson to learn .........
    broc, i have a lot of respect for you're experience, but in this instance i think you're wrong. The private sector continue to sign ICT outsourcing deals of unprecedented scale. Unilever not so long ago outsourcing to accenture their critical business sytems. Cadbury recently announcing a megabucks outsourcing deal with HP....and loads of others i've read about over the last year.

    The largest public sector bodies are a match for FTSE 100 companies in terms of IT spend and in-house skills. Neither look like scaling back on outsourcing or 'business transformation' projects. My own opinion is that these deals are notoriously difficult to implement, with the customers and employees of the organisations forced to feel the brunt of the changes while the directors and managers pat themselves on the back, and it often takes years for any benefits in 'efficiency' to materialise...and what 'efficiency' actually means for proponents of outsourcing is job cuts.
    Last edited by torledo; 23rd February 2008 at 07:28 PM.

  10. #10

    broc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,046
    Thank Post
    104
    Thanked 401 Times in 265 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    broc, i have a lot of respect for you're experience, but in this instance i think you're wrong. The private sector continue to sign ICT outsourcing deals of unprecedented scale. Unilever not so long ago outsourcing to accenture their critical business sytems. Cadbury recently announcing a megabucks outsourcing deal with HP....and loads of others i've read about over the last year.

    The largest public sector bodies are a match for FTSE 100 companies in terms of IT spend and in-house skills. Neither look like scaling back on outsourcing or 'business transformation' projects. My own opinion is that these deals are notoriously difficult to implement, with the customers and employees of the organisations forced to feel the brunt of the changes while the directors and managers pat themselves on the back, and it often takes years for any benefits in 'efficiency' to materialise...and what 'efficiency' actually means for proponents of outsourcing is job cuts.
    I am not going to start an argument about the merits of outsourcing. There are plenty of examples of where it doen't work and where companies have not realised the expected benefits.

    Dave Friedlos, Computing, 22 Mar 2007

    More than half of firms exit outsourcing deals early

    More than half of FTSE 350 companies have been forced to exit or renegotiate an outsourcing contract before the end of its term, research published this week shows.

    The survey from law firm Addleshaw Goddard says poor service, lack of control and hidden costs are usually to blame for failing outsourcing contracts.

    ‘Companies often embark on outsourcing deals with rose-tinted spectacles and do not anticipate what could happen when they go wrong,’ said Addleshaw Goddard’s technology and outsourcing head Margaret Harvey.

    Most firms have renegotiation or break clauses because the cost of technology falls over time, says Forrester analyst Euan Davis.

    ‘It is vital companies reach their service level agreements to avoid failure,’ he said. ‘When deals go sour, many companies have lost the knowledge required to bring services back in-house.’



    Outsourcing success story?

    How about......

    The AA has begun the transition from its £50m, seven-year outsourcing contract with IBM to bring its datacentre back in house.

    The motoring organisation, which has saved £22m in IT running costs since the contract began in 2005, believes it can now run its datacentres more cost-effectively internally.

    The five-month transition project will bring The AA's IT policy into line with that of its parent company Saga. Darragh O'Keefe, infrastructure strategy manager at The AA, said, "Saga does not believe you can save money by outsourcing."

    The AA will migrate the datacentre IT equipment it owns from IBM to its own datacentre between now and the end of June. It is spending £500,000 upgrading the air conditioning in an old AA business continuity site to take modern servers. The centre will run several business systems, including The AA's core customer database, Microsoft Exchange and SQL Server.


    What about ......


    Media giant BSkyB is suing US IT outsourcing firm EDS for £709m in a High Court case that kicked off in London yesterday.

    The broadcaster alleges that EDS failed to fulfil obligations of a £48m contract for a customer service system that was first agreed in 2000.

    BSkyB's barrister in the case said the firm's subsequent performance was "woeful", according to today's Financial Times.

    The media behemoth ended its contract with EDS in March 2002 and began legal action against the Texas-based firm in August 2004.

    The huge damages claim – said to be one of the largest British commercial cases of its kind – alleges deceit, negligent misrepresentation, and breach of contract by EDS.



    As far as Public sector outsourcing is concerned ....

    Report says outsourcing overruns cost billions
    24 December 2007

    A think tank has called for 'root and branch change' in public services, following its damning report on ICT outsourcing

    Research by the European Services Strategy Unit shows that 105 outsourced public sector ICT contracts have significant cost overruns, delays and terminations.

    The unit examined large outsourcing contracts, PPPs, PFIs and strategic service delivery partnerships in central government, the health service, local authorities, public bodies and agencies over the last 10 years.

    It found that cost overruns amounted to £9bn for the 105 projects, with an average percentage cost overrun of 30.5%. It also revealed that 30% of contracts were terminated and more than half (57%) had cost overruns.

    The main ICT companies with contract cost overruns, delays and terminations, according to the research are EDS (13 contracts); Liberata (eight contracts); Fujitsu and IBM (six each); Accenture, Atos Origin, Capita, ITNet (now Serco) and Siemens (five each) and BT (four).

    Many reports by the Public Accounts Committee, the National Audit Office and other organisations have tried to explain these problems, says the unit. But it also says these findings rarely get to the root of the problem because they focus almost exclusively on the procurement process.

    It says that clearly some of the problems encountered by ICT projects are a result of over-ambition, a lack of design and development before procurement, and pressures for efficiency savings overtaking the ability to deliver. The technical complexity of ICT projects is also often undeestimated, it says.

    Dexter Whitfield, the author of the report said: "The scope of the failures is shocking. The remedies do not lie in tinkering with the procurement process but with root and branch change in the modernisation of public services.

    "The government's commitment to commissioning and contestability does not address any of the fundamental causes and will only make matters worse for ICT projects in the next decade."

  11. #11

    russdev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Leicestershire
    Posts
    6,954
    Thank Post
    722
    Thanked 553 Times in 368 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    Rep Power
    205
    I have to agree with Broc move in commercial world is to move back in house (slow process but is happening) as it was two years ago I was in a briefing with some high level people at likes of HP who commented that out sourcing boom is declining as they move more back in house.

    Russ

  12. #12
    torledo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,928
    Thank Post
    168
    Thanked 155 Times in 126 Posts
    Rep Power
    48
    @broc

    I was not advocating the merits of outsourcing, just explaining that big outsourcing deals continue to be signed. We can spend all day finding stories of outsourcing deals that have turned awry but that doesn't stop the fact the deals continue to be signed, critical business functions continue to be outsourced. For every example you give of companies taking key services back in-house there are an equal number of new deals being signed.

    http://www.itbusinessedge.com/blogs/sts/?p=168
    http://www.computing.co.uk/computing...5m-outsourcing

    Apologies, it was Unilever who've outsourced infrastruture to HP in a $675 million deal. Infact the AA and BskyB examples you've used are small change compared to some of the recent deals that have been signed, including Unilever's huge deal with accenture last year to manage their SAP systems.

    I don't diagree with the report on the efficiency of outsourcing, i'm not an outsourcing advocate...why would i be. Just don't buy the outsourcing model is dead argument. Not that you were suggesting as such, but many people are.

    This distinction between public sector IT and private sector IT i don't agree with...public sector IT departments use the same products, have similarly highly trained IT staff and have very large IT spend in many instances. They also have the same problems to deal with. I will argue about you're claim that public sector IT is 'lagging behind' corporate IT.
    Last edited by torledo; 25th February 2008 at 10:35 AM.

  13. #13
    torledo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,928
    Thank Post
    168
    Thanked 155 Times in 126 Posts
    Rep Power
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by russdev View Post
    I have to agree with Broc move in commercial world is to move back in house (slow process but is happening) as it was two years ago I was in a briefing with some high level people at likes of HP who commented that out sourcing boom is declining as they move more back in house.

    Russ
    The rate of growth may well be declining Russ, and sure there are examples of services being moved in-house. But the company you've mentioned, HP, have a very sunstantial IT services arm and along with their technology partners are reliant on winning significant contracts for managing services.

    It's a very competitive area with numerous companies competing to win business, and many operations are too large and complex to move back in-house. Particularly for large multinationals with sophisticated supply chains.
    So companies like HP, accenture, IBM and their partners will continue to do well maybe not in wholesale outsourcing but in the management of certain key business functions on behalf of multnationals and public sector bodies.

  14. #14

    broc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,046
    Thank Post
    104
    Thanked 401 Times in 265 Posts
    Rep Power
    150
    @torledo,

    I suppose we should really consider the critical measure of outsourcing 'success' is not the number of clients who are signing up, but the number who continue their contract to term and then sign up for more?

    A good example of this would be those companies that have outsourced call centres offshore and are bringing them back because they have not always proved popular with their clients.

    In any case, while we both gave examples to prove our seperate points of view, citing examples of successful or unsuccessful outsourcing contracts with companies such as IBM, HP, EDS are largely irrelevant as far as BSF is concerned as none of them (as far as I am aware) has won any BSF ICT business yet.

    Perhaps it's because they don't think they can make any money out of it, or maybe that the BSF contracts are too small to be bothered with?

    I still think the private sector is in the vanguard when it comes to exploiting technology in general; successful companies are continually looking for a competitive edge and can build a business case for funding where there is a business advantage, whereas there will always be funding issues that inhibit technology advances at the same rate in the public sector.

  15. #15
    torledo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    2,928
    Thank Post
    168
    Thanked 155 Times in 126 Posts
    Rep Power
    48
    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    @torledo,

    I suppose we should really consider the critical measure of outsourcing 'success' is not the number of clients who are signing up, but the number who continue their contract to term and then sign up for more?

    A good example of this would be those companies that have outsourced call centres offshore and are bringing them back because they have not always proved popular with their clients.

    In any case, while we both gave examples to prove our seperate points of view, citing examples of successful or unsuccessful outsourcing contracts with companies such as IBM, HP, EDS are largely irrelevant as far as BSF is concerned as none of them (as far as I am aware) has won any BSF ICT business yet.

    Perhaps it's because they don't think they can make any money out of it, or maybe that the BSF contracts are too small to be bothered with?

    I still think the private sector is in the vanguard when it comes to exploiting technology in general; successful companies are continually looking for a competitive edge and can build a business case for funding where there is a business advantage, whereas there will always be funding issues that inhibit technology advances at the same rate in the public sector.
    i take you're point about IT in the private sector, but there are and will continue to be funding issues in the corporate sector, you only have to look at the fall out post dotcom boom to see the squeeze put on new IT projects and IT staffing within the private sector. Similarly the public bodies have to make the financial resources available for IT as they also need to stay competitive in their relative fields. The fact that the money available for IT spend is largely form taxes is irrelevant as long as there is a business case for new projects.

    If a city council raise council tax to pay for new services including IT, it's no different than a supermarket chain raising costs of their products to help pay for it's core business functions including IT.

    Go down to the school level and the funding disparity is evident, but there is little to choose at the higher levels. City councils, government departments do have the funding available, and are now at the vanguard after a few years of playing catchup in terms of implementing call centres and IT enabling their business. Some choose to outsource some or all of their business functions and some continue to keep certain areas 'in-house'. I suppose it is true the public sector is late to the outsourcing party so have yet to get their fingers burned in the same way as the corporate sector.

    I see little benefit for companies like IBM and EDS to bid for BSF projects as they have existing contracts in the public sector to manage. Although i do believe Sun and Dell have bid for bfs contracts, they're not big players in IT services and don't have the portfolio of IBM or EDS.



SHARE:
+ Post New Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. and you thought the education sector is badly paid...
    By baxter in forum Educational IT Jobs
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 23rd March 2008, 09:38 AM
  2. Working in the Independent sector
    By crc-ict in forum General Chat
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 2nd October 2007, 10:23 PM
  3. BSF - or outsourcing by another name
    By broc in forum General Chat
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 6th July 2006, 03:47 PM
  4. IDE HDD boot sector failure
    By e_g_r in forum Hardware
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 23rd November 2005, 11:03 AM
  5. Deal on public sector pensions
    By russdev in forum General Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 18th October 2005, 10:18 PM

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •