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BSF Thread, BSF ? in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; It's not possible that they hold all the cards. The knock on effect impacts on everyone right throughout the system ...
  1. #16

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    It's not possible that they hold all the cards.

    The knock on effect impacts on everyone right throughout the system to Parents.

  2. #17

    GrumbleDook's Avatar
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    Thinking about the number of complaints about LA led PFI builds it is small wonder that PfS have ammunition against LAs?

    The feedback from the last review meeting shows that it is still very business orientated rather than educationally orientated, and part of the blame for that goes to PfS, part to the LAs, part to the companies involved and part to the 'innovative' schools jumping on the Academy bandwagon and trying to avoid restrictions put onto them by BSF, rather than setting the scene for how BSF should be.

    All of the above issues are known by PfS and they are trying to be dealt with by better educating those that are involved at LA level and trying to get those important schools involved (who also have the political clout to force things to go in directions that LAs, Companies and PfS might not want but will have most benefit to the schools)!

    Certain LAs still view awkward schools (I prefer the phrase 'independently minded') as blockers rather than trying to understand why things won't work. A certain London project is a perfect example of that.

  3. #18

    broc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrumbleDook View Post
    Thinking about the number of complaints about LA led PFI builds it is small wonder that PfS have ammunition against LAs?
    I think PFI has come in for some stick in most areas it has been used, not just in Education. Time will tell if P4S have got it right, when so many other Govt departments seem to have struggled.

    For the record, just so everyone knows who is calling the shots under BSF

    PfS was established in April 2005, (after BSF was announced) as a Non Departmental Public Body (NDPB), and is operated and funded under a joint venture between the DfES and Partnerships UK (PUK).

    PUK, formed in 2000 offers a blend of public and private sector commercial expertise combined with hands-on experience in the development and delivery of numerous Private Finance Initiative (PFI) and other Public Private Partnerships (PPP) projects

    PUKís Shareholders

    HM Treasury 44.6%
    Bank of Scotland Corporate
    (Uberior Infrastructure Investments Limited) 8.8%
    The Prudential Assurance Company Ltd 8.8%
    Abbey National Treasury Services plc 6.7%
    Sun Life Assurance Society plc
    (HSBC Global Nominees (UK) Limited) 6.7%
    Barclays Industrial Investments Ltd 6.1%
    The Royal Bank of Scotland plc 6.1%
    The Scottish Ministers 4.4%
    Serco Ltd 3.3%
    Global Solutions Limited 2.2%
    The British Land Company plc
    (Boldswitch Ltd) 2.2%

  4. #19
    Grommit's Avatar
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    I beleive that SOCITM had some input into way things are

  5. #20

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    There are a great many organisations involved.

    But no matter which way I look at it .. it still all boils down to a distinct feeling/inclination that there is an infringement of equality & rights.

    If that feeling is widespread it would be little wonder LAs have such a large task in organising participation.

  6. #21
    Grommit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthierhyme View Post
    There are a great many organisations involved.

    But no matter which way I look at it .. it still all boils down to a distinct feeling/inclination that there is an infringement of equality & rights.

    If that feeling is widespread it would be little wonder LAs have such a large task in organising participation.

    We are trying to stop the BSF steamroller but it is flattening In-House ICT support all over the country...

    The school has no rights... if you want the money.... lose your ICT Manager and Department.... .

    If you want your ICT Manager and Department..... you lose the money...

    Thats your right..

  7. #22

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    think my signature reflects what will happen...

  8. #23

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    Grommit, those are two of the harsh realities faced by LAís when presenting the documents and also by schools when looking into the proposals.

    Your *job title* rights will be governed by the employment laws & all.
    Your rights as a person are another matter.
    *Insert Personal Disclaimer !! I donít know the ins & outs of any rights acts but do know if we acknowledge the Rights of Children, comparably we can do the same for adults.
    PDF deep/hotlinked with permission

    LAís will want the right to provide their community with services & facilities that enhance the area and encourage growth.

    Schools will want the right to provide a safe environment that meets the legal requirements, supports parental choice and builds infrastructures that can help guide & develop independently minded and openly aware students through their school years.

    Parents will want the right for schools to provide educational opportunities, promoting their childrenís personal development and learning skills for the future.

    The lack of an Opt out from the whole of the BSF programme doesnít seem to uphold any of these core intentions.

  9. #24

    broc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthierhyme View Post
    The lack of an Opt out from the whole of the BSF programme doesnít seem to uphold any of these core intentions.
    Schools can opt out of BSF; they can also opt out of the ICT managed service. They just don't get any money.

    What we all have to realise is that for many years school buildings have been neglected and very few new schools have been built in the last 30 years. The result is much of the secondary school building stock is in urgent need of renewal.

    Unfortunately Governments of both major political persuasions have squandered North Sea oil revenues for years and HM Treasury simply does not have the capital funds to finance a program like BSF, so it has to go 'cap in hand' to seek private financing. That is why private finance organisations have a strong representation in PUK, who in turn help 'run' PfS. The payback for the private companies is profit for shareholders, paid for by taxpayers for years to come. Allowing schools to pick & choose and opt out of managed services could limit their profits. 'Best value' will be swept under the carpet.

  10. #25
    torledo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    Schools can opt out of BSF; they can also opt out of the ICT managed service. They just don't get any money.

    What we all have to realise is that for many years school buildings have been neglected and very few new schools have been built in the last 30 years. The result is much of the secondary school building stock is in urgent need of renewal.

    Unfortunately Governments of both major political persuasions have squandered North Sea oil revenues for years and HM Treasury simply does not have the capital funds to finance a program like BSF, so it has to go 'cap in hand' to seek private financing. That is why private finance organisations have a strong representation in PUK, who in turn help 'run' PfS. The payback for the private companies is profit for shareholders, paid for by taxpayers for years to come. Allowing schools to pick & choose and opt out of managed services could limit their profits. 'Best value' will be swept under the carpet.
    i can't pretend to understand the ins and outs of private finance....but i believe pfi is not restricted to education projects such as bsf but also projects in the nhs and am i right in thinking the prison service aswell ?

    On a side note, did anyone watch the channel 4 dispatches program last in regards to school sizes. They brunel academy was featured, but what was most interesting was the experiences of the new york inner city schools in reducing the number of pupils per school.

    I know there isn't a dictat for the number of pupils in bsf and academy schools, but are the bsf bidders more or less likely to consider including small schools in inner city areas as part of their plans for rebuild.

  11. #26

    elsiegee40's Avatar
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    As I'm in the independent sector BSF won't affect my job directly, but as I've just violunteered as a governor at my son's secondary school, I'd better get up to speed on this

  12. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by broc View Post
    Schools can opt out of BSF; they can also opt out of the ICT managed service. They just don't get any money.
    Thank you.

    Lack of funding is nothing new & it isn't that Schools won't get any money - they will meerly continue on the same footing as before ... albeit with staff & parents having gained a much greater insight.

    No one would argue the necessity for new build but at what expense does.

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by torledo View Post
    i can't pretend to understand the ins and outs of private finance....but i believe pfi is not restricted to education projects such as bsf but also projects in the nhs and am i right in thinking the prison service aswell ?

    On a side note, did anyone watch the channel 4 dispatches program last in regards to school sizes. They brunel academy was featured, but what was most interesting was the experiences of the new york inner city schools in reducing the number of pupils per school.

    I know there isn't a dictat for the number of pupils in bsf and academy schools, but are the bsf bidders more or less likely to consider including small schools in inner city areas as part of their plans for rebuild.
    You are absolutely right, PFI is not purely an education finance vehicle, it has been used extensively elsewhere to fund Govt projects with mixed results.

    re your last point; It is up to the LA when they bid for BSF funding to choose the schools they wish to incorporate into a BSF bid. The bidders cannot pick & choose which schools they wish to be involved in, although of course they could decide not to bid for the LA business as a whole. The size of the school is determined based upon the number of students anticipated to be on 'roll' at the point when the new/refurbished building is due to open. In areas of falling rolls this means new builds are often significantly smaller than the schools they replace, increasing pressure on how the space is used and leading to innovative ideas like 'no ict rooms' and 'outside' corridors


    As a general rule, whole school rebuilds are PFI-funded, partial refurbishments are capital funding. I was told this was because the 'risks' of using PFI on refurbishment are too great for the PFI companies because of the many unknowns about the quality (or otherwise) of the existing buildings they would effectively take over for the duration of the PFI contract.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthierhyme View Post
    Thank you.

    Lack of funding is nothing new & it isn't that Schools won't get any money - they will meerly continue on the same footing as before ... albeit with staff & parents having gained a much greater insight.

    No one would argue the necessity for new build but at what expense does.
    The problem is; how would the parents of children at a school react when being told "The Headteacher and Governors have decided to decline the offer of £20m for a new building and £1.25m for ICT because we don't like the way the Government have decided to do things?"

    Schools have no choice.

  15. #30

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    lol .. I'd like to think schools would be acting on behalf of everyone involved.

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