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BSF Thread, BSF & TUPE in United Kingdom (UK) Specific Forums; Notice handed in and changing authority, Buys me a few more years until I have to face BSF again hopefully ...
  1. #31
    Hacksawbob's Avatar
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    Notice handed in and changing authority, Buys me a few more years until I have to face BSF again hopefully with more experience different areas) Going down the curriculum support route with IT support role too (Currently network manager) but as curriculum support more chance of surfing ahead of the BSF wave. I would no pin your future on TUPE, its as tight as a colander and there are many loopholes to get rid of staff on "economic and technical grounds" or to offer alternative work the other end of the country etc, The only way would be if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's and you can pull them up on not following procedure. Be aware that the school can unfairly dismiss you 1 year prior to TUPE and the legal action you take would transfer onto the company you are to be tuped to. It stinks, and anyone who tells you otherwise is just trying to keep you on for as long as they can syphon off you the info on the systems in place and keep a steady ship until they can shaft you.
    Last edited by Hacksawbob; 9th March 2009 at 12:00 PM.

  2. #32
    Face-Man's Avatar
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    I know for my LA that very early on a time line for the Buildings programme is set out. The BSF contract officer should have these deadline set out for each school. The ICT is a little bit more complicated as the school has some say over when they join the managed service. Schools can opt for a full managed service from day one of the contract or an interim service that may involve TUPE or may just be the service that will be needed to get benefit from some the bsf programme before the building work is complete (some of our schools that is year 4 of the contract).

    In all situation the LA should have a date for contract signing and that will be the earliest you will be Tupe over to the company.

  3. #33
    Hacksawbob's Avatar
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    Notice handed in and changing authority, Buys me a few more years until I have to face BSF again hopefully with more experience different areas) Going down the curriculum support route with IT support role too (Currently network manager) but as curriculum support more chance of surfing ahead of the BSF wave. I would no pin your future on TUPE, its as tight as a colander and there are many loopholes to get rid of staff on "economic and technical grounds" or to offer alternative work the other end of the country etc, The only way would be if they don't dot their i's and cross their t's and you can pull them up on not following procedure. Be aware that the school can unfairly dismiss you 1 year prior to TUPE and the legal action you take would transfer onto the company you are to be tuped to. It stinks, and anyone who tells you otherwise is just trying to keep you on for as long as they can syphon off you the info on the systems in place and keep a steady ship until they can shaft you.

    Take a look at TSSA - the union for people in transport and travel is very pro defending the workers rights

    Transferred employees who find that there has been a fundamental change for the worse in their terms and conditions of employment as a result of the transfer generally have the right to terminate their contract and claim unfair dismissal
    Then take a look at an HR website and you see a flip side in the tone relating to the regs which came in in 2006
    The New TUPE Regulations

    Clarification of how employers may lawfully dismiss employees or change terms and conditions of employment in connection with a TUPE transfer

  4. #34
    KWestos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Face-Man View Post
    The ICT is a little bit more complicated as the school has some say over when they join the managed service. Schools can opt for a full managed service from day one of the contract or an interim service that may involve TUPE or may just be the service that will be needed to get benefit from some the bsf programme before the building work is complete (some of our schools that is year 4 of the contract).
    I thought it was possible for a school to completely opt out of the managed service. This is one of the reasons I became a Governor, so I had some say in the process.

  5. #35
    mb2k01's Avatar
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    Hi KWestos,

    From my understanding, you are right.
    I am going through the process now and being utilised as a strange quasi-consultant mix for the process and it's certainly the impression i've got.
    I'm keeping my comments / thoughts flexible though - It's pretty early days for us in terms of planning (feasibility has only just been published and we've not even chosen a procurement option for IT) so things may change.

    Our Headteacher and Project Board were made to understand (from different sources & levels) that TUPE or Managed Services would not be a suitable option for us, and that's the way we all envisiage it progressing.

  6. #36
    somabc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KWestos View Post
    I thought it was possible for a school to completely opt out of the managed service. This is one of the reasons I became a Governor, so I had some say in the process.
    It is probably possible in theory for a school to turn down the managed service, but this will have knock on implications for funding IT Services, new buildings and refurbishment and so on.

  7. #37
    KWestos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by somabc View Post
    It is probably possible in theory for a school to turn down the managed service, but this will have knock on implications for funding IT Services, new buildings and refurbishment and so on.
    What's the worst that could happen. We would still have roughly the same ICT budget now. If we went down the managed route, we would be managed by a few donkeys who don't know the school etc. with virtually no local support. We may have a few flashy classrooms, but what software. Most of the budget allegedly saved by grouping the schools would go to the supplier anyway!

  8. #38
    mb2k01's Avatar
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    Again, from my understanding of the process going on here, there is no knock-on effective of reduced funding. I'm in the lucky position of being able to work closely with the project team and leadership, so have been able to see budget allocations from the start.

  9. #39
    sahmeepee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbraham View Post
    Again, from my understanding of the process going on here, there is no knock-on effective of reduced funding. I'm in the lucky position of being able to work closely with the project team and leadership, so have been able to see budget allocations from the start.
    Good luck with your efforts and of course keep everyone here posted.

    Am I right to assume your BSF is coming from Cornwall County Council? To my knowledge no school has successfully opted out of a completed BSF ICT bid although there is, technically, the option of providing an "Alternative Business Procurement Case". Of 600 schools, 2 have tried that and none have succeeded. As a very rough guess, BSF ICT is unpopular with at least 1/3 of schools (probably more)... that suggests the process is not straightforward.

    More info here: Schools: ICT: 5 Feb 2009: Written answers (TheyWorkForYou.com)

  10. #40
    mb2k01's Avatar
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    Hi sahmeepee,

    It's probably a good idea for me to remain vague (which isn't a hard thing for me to do!) at the min.
    Before I got anywhere near a meeting of anything ICT-specific I sat down and searched for hours on BSF schools and how their ICT was done. What I read was horror stories about TUPE, Managed Services, people wanting a new job before the new schools were built, basically nothing good being said at all!

    So, as you can imagine, I went in to my first meeting with shed loads of examples, highlighted points, all ready for a bit of a fight...
    What I came out with, was the assurance that Managed Services wouldn't be imposed if the school didn't want them, TUPE wouldn't be imposed and several ICT procurement options were available which would all satisfy BSF criteria and allow customisation of the new ICT build.
    Our chosen procurement option is yet to be agreed, and one of them has been temporarily put to one side, but I can promise before we choose one, those same assurances will need to be made (and written down!)

    I will keep this thread well-informed!

  11. #41
    Face-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KWestos View Post
    What's the worst that could happen. We would still have roughly the same ICT budget now. If we went down the managed route, we would be managed by a few donkeys who don't know the school etc. with virtually no local support. We may have a few flashy classrooms, but what software. Most of the budget allegedly saved by grouping the schools would go to the supplier anyway!
    Unfortunately part of the way the government can spin the £45 billion is that they take the money they currently give schools for building maintenance and grants for ICT expenditure back for the 5 years of the contract, so if you opt out of BSF the schools budget is slashed. This is why there is pressure inside LA/schools to go for it.

    You can as I believe two schools have done write an alternative proposal for your ICT service or have an LA bid to take on the contract but these are far from an easy ride as well.

  12. #42
    conehead's Avatar
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    Andy Davies BSF ICT Blog: BSF ICT Procurement Model Change

    not sure if anybody else has flagged this up yet, but it seems the pressure is on Jim Knight to allow the ICT managed service in first, even before the building work is done, or bidder chosen!

    Which means earlier Tupe for techs I assume.

  13. #43
    sahmeepee's Avatar
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    IIRC he's posted on here at one point.

  14. #44

    Theblacksheep's Avatar
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    Cat wants cream early, suprise, suprise.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sahmeepee View Post
    IIRC he's posted on here at one point.
    He may well be a viewer as I listened to a podcast on bsfconversations dot com in which Edugeek was mentioned

    Neilenormal



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